Why some women are not asked to dance

[itwillhappen]

Still, were I inviting people to a private event, I'd invite people who dance more like I do. I'd just have to force myself not to couch things in terms of "level."

One does not have to sugarcoat it, it practically doesn't matter whether an event is private or semi-public. One way or another, it becomes known. A sophisticated rhetoric on the selection criteria is then of little use. A public event would be better for the community.

The reason why there are encuentros is the same reason why some women aren't asked to dance: because Tango puts individual interests first. When I train in Aikido, I have to do it with everyone present. If I generally don't want that, then there's a clarifying conversation, and if that doesn't help, then the trainer shows me the way to the door. Theoretically, that would also be possible with Tango, but it is mostly not desired, one can state that quite soberly.

 

[Tangogal]

I’m probably never going to an encuentro. Reasons:
1. I don’t have the energy to make the right friends or travel every weekend to put myself in their sight.
2. I don’t have a tango partner - gender balance means asking couples first then finding leaders for the organisers’ and their friends then finally adding single followers.
3. I like new ideas and seeing different dancers that don’t dance like me.
4. I feel that exclusivity and creating a tiered scene is to the detriment of tango as a social dance.

I’m a little disappointed that @itwillhappen has reported that the dancing standard was average. Why go to the effort of organising an exclusive event with an implied selection bias for the best of dancers if it’s going to be an average milonga?

 

[opendoor]

..dislike.. "salon" tango with.. minimal weight-sharing, plus extensive step projection.. led in two dimensions ... I prefer more knee bend, a tighter hug.. non-illusionary.. apilado, smaller steps.. along the line of dance...

What a pity, we cannot dance together, I prefer right the opposite!

 

[JournalInTime]

I don’t have the energy to make the right friends or travel every weekend to put myself in their sight.

That's what blocks me. I could eventually make the necessary contacts – as I've said before, I know most of the people I see in images and videos of events in my city and in cities within a few hours of it. However, I have neither the desire to exchange my current friends for these people (which, with limited time to spend with people, is what would happen), nor the finances to attend festivals often. Also, my partner in life and dance is chronically ill, and hasn't the energy for event travel, much less marathons.

Why go to the effort of organising an exclusive event with an implied selection bias for the best of dancers if it’s going to be an average milonga?

To be fair, it may be because of what we discussed in one of the sub-threads: It isn't about "best" but about "like us."

Most of us assume that private events (whatever you call them) are about level ("best"), but in reality, most are about likemindedness. For instance, I'd enjoy an event where everyone dances strictly very close, strictly with small steps, strictly in their lanes (no passing), and strictly with constant forward progress at the speed of the ronda (no racing or blocking). That isn't the only way to dance or even the only way I dance, but I'd welcome a break from floors filled with people who take up more than their fair share of space and cannot manage a small, moving bubble of space. Such an event would have nothing to do with level and everything to do with preferences.

Around here, "level" seems to be associated not with floorcraft but with elegance and vocabulary. Someone who dances lots of fancy steps well and tall and pretty is "high level" even if he smashes into everybody in the process. Someone who dances almost beneath notice is "low level" even if he has a flawless record at driving. I tend to reverse the two in my head.

 

[JournalInTime]

What a pity, we cannot dance together, I prefer right the opposite!

Such differences keep tango interesting, my friend!

I started tango in 2013, after the so-called "nuevo" trend (to be clear: I'm talking about movement and not music) had flared out in my city. Tango here was in a backlash against it. Some teachers were pushing their ideas of "traditional," with tight hugs and small movements on crowded floors. They and people taught by them danced – and continue to dance – close and in strict lanes. I often dance that way; consequently, my partner rotation is on the grey side (small and close is more forgiving to old joints), with an unusually large dose of South Americans who are self-professed traditionalists.

However, it isn't as though the people who danced during the "nuevo" trend – and dancers taught by them – ceased to exist. They're all still here. They don't dance close and in strict lanes, and often use extravagant movements.

For an extra spin, a few years back, a local school with ties to El Mundial started to encourage ordinary social dancers to practice and compete in qualifiers. Quite a few teachers saw the money in this and shifted toward that approach. This created a surprisingly large third group, more traditional than "nuevo" but dancing with the salon extravagance that wins points in competition.

What makes tango challenging at times is that these people must share a floor, and often partners. On the other hand, variety is the spice of life and I'd be lying if I said I didn't like to see it all. When I grumble, that's my inner leader grousing about floorcraft, not an aesthetic judgment of the dance itself.

To be fair, I dance those other ways sometimes: When there's plenty of space, no reason to worry about collisions, and the only partners present are people who dance that way, I'll go out and lead my share of big two-axis turns, colgadas, planeos, etc. I just won't do that at peak floor density. Seeing someone lead a huge, lyric movement to a fast rhythmic piece like "El Nene del Abasto" when each couple has 60×60cm is a bit much.

 

[opendoor]

I started tango in 2013, after the so-called "nuevo" trend.. Tango here was in a backlash against it. Some teachers were pushing their ideas of "traditional," with tight hugs and small movements on crowded floors...

I started tango in 2001, after the so-called "nuevo" trend. Tango then was in a backlash against it. Some teachers were pushing their ideas of "traditional" with elegant postures, fancy footwork and giros. Only Villa-Urquiza-style was regarded as true tango, and Milonguero-style was seen as kind of a failed whitewash of a North American taste aberration.

However, it isn't as though the people who danced during the "nuevo" trend.. ceased to exist. They're all still here. They don't dance close and in strict lanes, and often use extravagant movements..

However, the "nuevo" stylists in my part of the world seem to have disappeared. They adapted to the mainstream, dance small and well-behaved in lanes. But there is a new generation of Nuevo dancers growing, organized around appropriate DJs.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

The reason why there are encuentros is the same reason why some women aren't asked to dance: because Tango puts individual interests first. When I train in Aikido, I have to do it with everyone present. If I generally don't want that, then there's a clarifying conversation, and if that doesn't help, then the trainer shows me the way to the door. Theoretically, that would also be possible with Tango, but it is mostly not desired, one can state that quite soberly.

These aren't comparable. In one case, you're studying/practicing/training with your trainer. In the other, it's a public event where people are not bound by the conventions of a student/teacher relationship (especially in something as disciplined as a martial art). So apples and oranges. Beyond that, and as a general point, since this has been bandied about several times, you are never going to create a situation where everyone dances with everyone else. There is always going to be some kind of personal selection process. It would be good if we were all more open and generous, of course, but kindness can only do so much.

 

[itwillhappen]

I’m probably never going to an encuentro. Reasons:
1. I don’t have the energy to make the right friends or travel every weekend to put myself in their sight.
2. I don’t have a tango partner - gender balance means asking couples first then finding leaders for the organisers’ and their friends then finally adding single followers.

Ad 1. When it comes to travel, when it comes to our energy, our resources, we see things more clearly. Most of us don't travel for a better tango world, or because we think we are God's gift to our dance partners, rather we expect "energy efficiency", an individual "return on invest" regarding our interests. And event organizers need to constantly ask themselves and others what those interests are. Fulfilling these is not a always a pleasant job.

Ad 2. My tango partner has a tango partner, me, but that doesn't make her life any easier overall because she has to put up with me as a life partner. Again, it's all a matter of priorities.

3. I like new ideas and seeing different dancers that don’t dance like me.
4. I feel that exclusivity and creating a tiered scene is to the detriment of tango as a social dance.

I recently talked with a successful organizer of double-role events (with registration), who strives for inclusivity. Anyone is welcome to attend the event the first time, even dance one (his) role, but the second time he implicitly expects everyone to dance both roles with everyone there. That's the way his event works well, but it's just a matter of personal values whether you consider it finally inclusive or exclusive.

 

[Rabbit]

I recently talked with a successful organizer of double-role events (with registration), who strives for inclusivity. Anyone is welcome to attend the event the first time, even dance one (his) role, but the second time he implicitly expects everyone to dance both roles with everyone there. That's the way his event works well, but it's just a matter of personal values whether you consider it finally inclusive or exclusive.

Sounds quite a reasonable approach.

I think it would be enough for events to just say "this is our niche: X type of dancing with Y mix of music with a core audience of Z demographic" and people would just select themselves.

 

[JournalInTime]

I think it would be enough for events to just say "this is our niche: X type of dancing with Y mix of music with a core audience of Z demographic" and people would just select themselves.

In theory I agree, but tango people are often terrible judges of themselves.

Last night at the milonga, there were (let me count) seven leaders I know of who – via social media, or at the bar when I worked it, or in group conversations – have made it known that they find the floorcraft here atrocious and would prefer to dance at encuentros with a respectful crowd. What were they doing last night when it was extremely crowded? Cutting across two lanes, staking out three or four metres of space, and taking steps back along the line of dance. Their harem of preferred partners were fine with this . . . and none of those followers would give me the time of day if I looked toward them for a tanda, even though I dance small and don't back up.

One of those people organizes encuentros. Another is associated with a studio that does. Two more are musicians who offer and play private events. All get invited to the others' events. So do all their favorite followers.

If they said, "Respectful, smooth-flowing tango for mature dancers tired of the chaos at the milonga. You know who you are," well, anybody who actually took them at their word would be shocked. Say, a tourist who doesn't know them at all, saw the advert, and decided to go. It's for the best that they invite one another to their events in private.

We also have a few DJs who go blah-blah-blah about being tired of the ancient standards and promise new discoveries. Then they play strictly simple rhythmic pieces no more recent than the 1930s, better suited to canyengue than to today's tango. One of them organizes stuff, and if he said, "Y mix of music," anyone who believed him would be cheated. Again, it's for the best that he invites his friends who think some OTV plodder is a "new discovery."

In the balance, "invitation only" is for the best. It's just that using "level" as the apology for not giving out an invitation is a garbage excuse. Being honest and saying, "My chums only," would create a whole lot less tension in the community.

 

[Gssh]

I think it would be enough for events to just say "this is our niche: X type of dancing with Y mix of music with a core audience of Z demographic" and people would just select themselves.

In my experience tango dancers are not very good at self reflection and at judging what type of dancing and mix of music and demographic they are actually enjoy. This combined with the fact that the tango community is too small to support such a self selection, and that we tend to talk more about "there is only one tango" than about "with a bit of work different tangos can co-exist" leads to this weird tension of the different slices of the tango community both ignoring each other and poaching from each other.

 

[JournalInTime]

In my experience tango dancers are not very good at self reflection and at judging what type of dancing and mix of music and demographic they are actually enjoy.

Yep!

We have a few here who show up to traditional milongas frequented mainly by older, traditional tanguer@s and bemoan the lack of "alternative" music, and the unfriendliness they feel when they dance large, open steps. I mean, what were they expecting? If you want to dance big, weird moves to a Billie Eilish piece, why would you show up to a milonga that boasts "The feeling of Buenos Aires!" in the ad, with a DJ well-known to be a guy in his 70s who plays nothing later than about 1948, for a crowd averaging 60 years old?

Putting the shoe on the other foot: Since I dance exclusively close-embrace "milonguero-style" tango and favor the traditional repertoire (if more the 1940-1950s end), I don't go to blues fusion nights, even though they actually play lots of tango nuevo (e.g., Piazzolla). Showing up there and whining about no line of dance, no D'Arienzo, etc. would be inconsiderate of me.

 

[Tango Distance]

I also don't think it really has anything to do with skill level. People have a very strong tendency to conflate whatever they personally value with some sort of "objective" level (which in reality does not exist.) I am not immune to that myself.

Neither do I. Their existence makes perfect sense: I don't invite everybody I know to every dinner or cocktail party I host, either – I invite people who know each other and have things in common. My only objection is to the dishonesty of saying, "You aren't sufficiently high level," while meaning, "You don't dance like we do." The former sounds judgmental; the latter, objective (I'm not invited to, say, football parties because I don't follow football, nor to my partner's workplace Teams meetings because I don't work there).

I have very limited data, but as it is both similar and different I think it is worth sharing.

• A lady in our community loves encuentros. Per her, she has trouble getting dances at regular Tango events, but dances regularly at encuentros. She also said she likes that encuentros tend to be an older crowd.
• My dear wife (DW) just happened to be in a city where there was a practilonga the night before an encuentro started. Many from the encuentro were there. DW said she was asked many times if she was going to the encuentro, and when she said "No" was told "You are certainly good enough!" I have no doubt my DW would have no trouble getting herself invited. I would get invited based on being my DW's spouse, a lack of leads, and my dot-com-nerd-billionaire good looks.
• Festivals within a day's drive get attendance from my local scene, people will drive 12 and 15 hours each way to do Tango. In character, a chunk of our local scene went to this same encuentro. When we saw pictures from it, we were surprised to see several dancers were there who we wouldn't have thought were good enough to be invited. IMHO they are 30th percentile dancers in our little area.
• So there you have it, data points for the encuentroers being both better and worse than average!

Obviously, the best place to dance with real, live Argentine tangueros is in Buenos Aires. What would be the next best way to do that in the U.S.A.? Is there a locale or event that is especially good this way? Are encuentros perhaps a better bet this way?

 

[Tangogal]

lady in our community loves encuentros. Per her, she has trouble getting dances at regular Tango events, but dances regularly at encuentros. She also said she likes that encuentros tend to be an older crowd.

Exactly the whole point of this thread! It’s a numbers game so when the numbers are adjusted everyone gets to dance. Also “older crowd” means you don’t have to be the best or most athletic to attract a partner.

As to your second point: “you’re certainly good enough” is pretty much what I thought encuentros were about. Selecting the good dancers to recreate some ideal of Buenos Aires in the golden age.

And then your third point confirms the experience of others at Encuentro events. The selection of guests is more about who you know than your objective dance level. Most dancers have no idea what their true level is and will self-select based on their own levels of confidence. At the end of the day organisers are providing a service to their customers and are unlikely to turn away a well-connected 30th percentile dancer (especially if they happen to be billionaires and secret sponsors of the event).

 

[JournalInTime]

A lady in our community loves encuentros. Per her, she has trouble getting dances at regular Tango events, but dances regularly at encuentros.

I suspect that's because most encuentros are role- and/or gender-balanced events. All the ones here are: To sign up, you are obligated to indicate both gender and preferred role, and the organizers make sure it's as close to 50/50 as humanly (and legally . . .) possible. Whereas at a typical milonga in our area, the ratios are heavily skewed toward loads of female followers.