Quite right.
A Comfortable Embrace
- Thread starter JohnEm
- Start date
Quite right.
Yes there are which is why I've restricted the question only to circumstances
where the embrace of the woman's left arm is actually painful. This hold,
rather like your partner in your pic, is not my preference but I dance with
ladies who do seem to prefer it or haven't been taught anything different.
My preference is the couple behind you.
Strangely, generalising wildly so please don't flame, experience tells me
it tends to be ladies who absorb the latest teaching to become a rule.
More experienced ladies (but not all by any means), like experienced men,
tend to be more accommodating.
Because men have the working out role, men are perhaps more likely to think
and experiment before permanently adopting something new. Sometimes
I've danced again with a lady only to find she's changed for the worse
because of something peculiar she's been taught. And me, being a mere
male dancer and not teacher, has no say in the matter even if it results
in a difficult dance.
In the end, we all have to adapt to each other despite preferences.
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
Women put their hands there to remind them tha t we're their puppets :lol:
One thing that makes a lot of the opinions by both sides on leading vs following difficult to compare, is because most of us primarily do one or the another. Thus (I) as a leader really don't know that much about what other leaders do (or feel like). We mostly only know what other leaders tell us, and what we can see. On the other hand, we know quite a bit about our experiences with other followers.
What I think happens, is that we (probably incorrectly) assume most other leaders are like us, when comparing leaders to followers. Of course the same would apply to a follower, when comparing followers to leaders. She might assume that most other followers are like her (when probably they are not).
Now with all that being said, here is one experience I had that would be supportive of JohnEm's opinion. It was in a class where we were doing inline sacadas. It's not a move I do much, so I knew they weren't perfect, but I thought I was at least doing OK (and was being very careful to be gentle with the contact). Of course, the follower started complaining to me about how I wasn't doing then exactly like the teacher did, and so on. I politely listened, and when she was finished, I asked her, "how do they feel?". She thought for a moment, smiled and then said, "actually, they feel very good".
At that point, I suddenly had visions of a cuckoo clock in place of her head, while thinking, there's just no pleasing some people. Apparently making them comfortable wasn't good enough. I needed to do them exactly like the teacher did.
I think there may be all kinds of psychological, cultural or "brain wiring" ways to explain what you are John Em are saying. However the bottom line seems to be this:
Women implement the teaching in a class more quickly than the men.
I almost said they pick up the teaching faster, but I decided that might not actually be the case (after John Em's mention of deliberate experimenting and such)
Whether they are learning it faster or just mimicking it more faithfully or more inclined to follow directions or just more natural at picking up movement or they just have less to worry about in the moment because they are doing the step they were showed rather than having to lead as well, or, or, or... We could have a whole thread debating all that. BOttom line...
Women do (as a sweeping generalization) implement the teaching of the lesson faster IN the lesson than the guys do. (and often sooner out of the lesson)
That's been my experience both as a student leader, a student follower and a teacher.
Some really interesting observations emerging out of this from both
yourself and dchester, all of which my experience confirms, albeit in
a very general kind of way. As dchester has said in relation to tango,
there are no rules and, I would say in this context, plenty of exceptions.
Women seem to follow directions and take them at face value more.
In a work environment that can be both good and bad as that trait
can be to the exclusion of initiative, exploration and experimentation.
And again this is an observation not intended to cause provocation.
As an aside but a relevant one, it has always seemed to me that much
partner dancing, and especially the evolution of tango, really does play
to the strengths and differences of the sexes. My own feeling is that
there should be no harm in recognising that.
And frustration can easily lead to the lady back-leading which isn't usually helpful.
Men need time to work it all out for themselves, each in their own way,
mentally, physically and spatially in order to master their role. So patience
is needed by the lady and the man needs a determination to succeed.
I have found that the best thing to do in a class (on the rate occasions that I take a group class anymore) is follow what the man leads even if it wasn't what was taught. That means that if he doesn't lead the move correctly, I don't do the move. Occasionally someone will gripe that I'm "not doing my step". However, I've also had guys flat out thank me for not doing the step if they don't lead it right, so they can figure out where they're going wrong. Often that is more informative for them than verbal feedback on what they need to do.
I figure there's not a lot of long term hope for the ones who gripe anyway, but the ones who realize the value of me following what they ACTUALLY lead have potential to become really good leaders.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. You can have kisses as well xx
I agree entirely. If the follower gives the leader the step, he doesn't know whether he's led it or not. Then he takes it out on the dance floor and can't figure out why his partner isn't doing the step.
OTOH, I've been in classes where I figured out a sequence, but my partner hadn't yet and was trying to follower what the teacher was saying. I asked her to just permit me to lead her, and then it all worked out fine.
Going to slightly disagree here, not with the resultant failure but the cause.
If a leader doesn't know why the "figure" (sorry I don't like that term in
the AT world) didn't work and cannot work out whether he's lead the move
in practice or not, then he needs a lot more work on the senses of leading.
I can always tell if a lady is backleading, mainly because I am not being
permitted to. If my intent isn't first then she is ahead of me, the connection
is usually gone and probably the timing too. When it really goes wrong, man
plays catchup and a little race happens for who gets to the finish first.
The music probably arrives last!
But most certainly yes to this.
It's even worse when your partner is craning her neck to see teacher while
you are trying to lead the movement he/she happens to be demonstrating.
So she is trying to dance with teacher while you are trying to dance with her.
It never works.
Looking at it from the other side (just to cause trouble
) the follower perspective on this is that the guy won't just wait a sec while she watches the teacher demonstrate something she wants clarification of or more info about.I know I've found it irritating when the teacher is still talking and demonstrating and the person I'm supposed to dance with has already stopped listening and wants to try it. Sometimes the teacher has moved off the leader's role and onto follower tips and the leader automatically thinks... "ok, not info for me" and forgets that his partner DOES need to hear that part.
If the teacher is demonstrating for another couple (not the class) after the "try it" point has started, then its still possible that your partner wants more info or wants the teacher's attention, or has a question they think the teacher might be addressing.
Frankly, I fail to see the logic of diverting your partner's attention AWAY from the instructor while the instructor is trying to demonstrate or explain things. It also seems pretty rude to the teacher if they are still trying to give the class info, so I assume you mean while the teacher is working with another couple. From my point of view, you'll have lots of time to work with it on your own later, and it makes sense to take advantage of everything the teacher is saying while you have them present and offering tips.
Looking at it from the other side (just to cause trouble
Oh you've gone and ruined it all just when we were in each other's good books . .
But you have a point, depending on its context.
In classes I've been stopped from proceeding
by ladies who are trying to work it out so later
they can backlead (sorry "help") their partners!
If it's traditional embrace tango then there should be no need
ever for the lady to be working out what teacher wants,
more or less the point you've already made.
You sneaked in an edit!! A long one! So to clarify:
I'm talking about when a teacher is walking through something
for the whole class to do it with him/her. I'm not talking about
pre-empting the practice and this scenario you're mentioning
would be rather rude of the leader.
Yes she might and first she should communicate that to her partner.
I think there are too many ifs here - I'm not a teacher and you may have
seen more situations than me though I've done plenty of different classes
in differing dances with sometimes indifferent partners and even indifferent teachers.
I've covered this already. But I have experienced the situation
where teacher is giving help to another couple and my partner
is trying to follow his demonstration/help for someone else entirely.
It's quite odd - you feel as if your partner is not your partner.
