Mario7
Member
Wow, great! A direct answer to a direct question! Mil Gracias!!!
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A good sylabus for close embrace Tango learning
- Thread starter Mario7
- Start date
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Yeah, I know, I'll try not to make a habit of it...
tangonuevo
New Member
Mario - Profoundly important. Enough so that I wanted to repeat this as well.
Notice that Zoop didn't say: 'the ability to walk backwards while leaning on you.' This forward presence is created by the follow 'working the floor' and is so basic and yet so misunderstood by many leaders who haven't learned the mechanics. They feel resistance, ergo, the follow is leaning. Not so. I suggest that before you attempt to actually teach anything to a woman, you walk a mile in her shoes. Literally. Buy/borrow some high heels and work with an excellent follow on follower technique. The week I spent doing exactly that was a real eye-opener!! And it vastly improved my lead as well.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Hear hear!
Too often, it seems, followers are assumed to have an easy ride with AT. Just follow the man, if the man is leading correctly she doesn't have a choice in where to go, she doesn't need to think just to feel. While all of those things are, in some ways, correct, it undermines the very real effort that goes into our own separate technique.
I won't presume to compare the difficulty of what followerd do to the difficulty of becoming a good leader, if only because I've never led and have no idea. But I can say that it isn't easy to do what we do...at least not until it has been practiced so much that the dance become infinitely simple.
Mario, be careful as you are teaching. You are just learning your own parts; take care when trying to instruct her as to her role. Chances are the issues are arising from a combination of problems on both your parts.
I can't imagine doing what you are doing. I've been at this for 4 or 5 (can't remember when I started) years. I'm now practicing with someone. And I am extremely hesitant when I bring up issues, because I cannot be sure that the problem originates with me or with him. God forbid something I say--incorrectly--impedes his further learning. As such, I try to make a point of discussing things in terms of what I felt and what I had a problem doing, and try to leave it up to him to come up with the correction, because I don't fully understand what all is going on with his role. I will say "I felt like I did not have enough time to complete my back step in the molinete," and leave him to figure out what he was doing with his feet/body which could have created that situation/what could be done to remedy the situation. Or, perhaps he will tell me he was responding to a problem he felt with me. I cannot even imagine trying to outright teach a beginner, even after 4 or 5 years; it's only now really dawning on me just how much I do not know.
There are exceptions to this, and I don't always remember to keep my trap shut
, but it's my general rule of thumb.
Too often, it seems, followers are assumed to have an easy ride with AT. Just follow the man, if the man is leading correctly she doesn't have a choice in where to go, she doesn't need to think just to feel. While all of those things are, in some ways, correct, it undermines the very real effort that goes into our own separate technique.
I won't presume to compare the difficulty of what followerd do to the difficulty of becoming a good leader, if only because I've never led and have no idea. But I can say that it isn't easy to do what we do...at least not until it has been practiced so much that the dance become infinitely simple.
Mario, be careful as you are teaching. You are just learning your own parts; take care when trying to instruct her as to her role. Chances are the issues are arising from a combination of problems on both your parts.
I can't imagine doing what you are doing. I've been at this for 4 or 5 (can't remember when I started) years. I'm now practicing with someone. And I am extremely hesitant when I bring up issues, because I cannot be sure that the problem originates with me or with him. God forbid something I say--incorrectly--impedes his further learning. As such, I try to make a point of discussing things in terms of what I felt and what I had a problem doing, and try to leave it up to him to come up with the correction, because I don't fully understand what all is going on with his role. I will say "I felt like I did not have enough time to complete my back step in the molinete," and leave him to figure out what he was doing with his feet/body which could have created that situation/what could be done to remedy the situation. Or, perhaps he will tell me he was responding to a problem he felt with me. I cannot even imagine trying to outright teach a beginner, even after 4 or 5 years; it's only now really dawning on me just how much I do not know.
There are exceptions to this, and I don't always remember to keep my trap shut
, but it's my general rule of thumb.It was me and my partner. He was leading me in flat-on CE "crossed back" ochos and another leader told him that if he'd just open the embrace at that point, I'd be able to do ochos correctly instead of having to cheat them. His idea of correct was figure 8's in place with a lot of pivoting in an open embrace. We were doing traveling ochos as crossing backsteps with no pivoting and therefore we were "wrong".
The teacher doesn' have to be female. My (male) partner who was my first teacher taught me more about following and follower's technique than any other teacher I've had. The female teachers I've taken privates from afterwards that have improved me were only taking me to the next level of the foundation that HE built for me. They refined me and corrected small issues that created problems. He gave me the big picture to start with.
Besides, there must be some more advanced followers in your area? She should be chatting up all the good followers she sees. She doesn't have to rely on a lesson with a teacher to get good follower tips.
Mario, as I said before, I'm not trying to discourage you from working with her. But unless she is able to figure it out on her own somehow (which would be unusual because its not particularly intuitive) she's going to need some advice about her specific needs as a follower. I had a fair amount of various movement training prior to tango, and the specific body mechanics weren't intuitive for me either.
Mario7
Member
Fortunately, I don't see myself making these kinds of false corrections..having read and studied on CE for at least a few hours each day for 2 1/2 years..I'm specialized and I'm retired (have the time).
I'm not so sure the high heels are necessary. In some ways, they actually make the back walking easier, not harder. Doing it in flats actually is somewhat harder, because there's a tendency to dance more on the toes and not put your heels down which can be unstable. The follower who is used to heels sometimes takes a backstep that is too long when she is in flats, because she stretches through the top of the foot (pointing the foot) and then doesn't have enough flexibility in the achilles to lower the heel without pulling away from her partner. So she either pulls away or leans more on him because he back step was too far for her to properly transfer her weight.
Anyway, you might want to try the exercise again in flats, keeping that in mind and see what you learn from it. (and try walking FORWARD in the heels... that's where things REALLY get awkward for some followers)
Mario7
Member
I've asked her to 'chatt it up' and I hope she soon does that.
Today, during practice she backlead one step..she was stepping backwards and what was soooo noticable is that it was THE FIRST backlead she did since I met her. And she hadn't danced since high school...the goddess is with us!
I've asked her to 'chatt it up' and I hope she soon does that.
Today, during practice she backlead one step..she was stepping backwards and what was soooo noticable is that it was THE FIRST backlead she did since I met her. And she hadn't danced since high school...the goddess is with us!
Are you saying that her backleading was a good thing? I'm confused.
Mario7
Member
I have no choice..I either do what I'm doing or else I'd be lucky to dance a few songs a week.
tangonuevo
New Member
Thanks. And I do regularly follow, and always take follower's technique classes when I have the opportunity. But the heels were still an eye opener. Walking forward is indeed hard, but the whole issue of balance takes on a new perspective as well.
Mario7
Member
I've asked her to 'chatt it up' and I hope she soon does that.
Today, during practice she backlead one step..she was stepping backwards and what was soooo noticable is that it was THE FIRST backlead she did since I met her. And she hadn't danced since high school...the goddess is with us!
No, what I'm saying is that we've danced together around 8 hours a week for 7 weeks and she's never backlead a step. capice?
Oh I see... We're talking about your current practice partner, not the new one. I keep forgetting about that. Also, i got the impression that you meant the gods were with you because she was finally backleading, not that the gods are with you because she rarely does.
ok... i think i'm all caught up!:doh:
Here's how I see it. Women (generally speaking) learn Tango much faster than us men do. There are two possible reasons as I see it. Either the women's role is easier than the man's role, or women are just better dancers than men.
So rather than giving us guys low self esteem, why not just tell us that the women's role is easier (like we tell ourselves).
