Cabeceo and Other "Rules"

[Tango Newbie]

Hi Tango Newbie, Yes and No. The tango community is also a part of the world out there. So we can't expect a complete special way. However, I don't see what you're emphasizing as an general ideal worth striving for. It's always there, but not exclusively. There is usually a certain ambiguity, we play with our roles and traditions. What you are now seeking and cherishing actually was once very important to me. When I arrived at tango, I was very insecure, I had had rather bad experiences with women. I was a softy, I came from a completely different direction. In this respect, tango was an important school for me and codigos were an important help.

I appreciate your input, and understand there are many ways of looking at things like codigos and etiquette. As you may already know, I'm somewhat of an old fashioned, no-nonsense kind of man who spent 24 years serving in the US Maine Corps. While I'm a little bit of a "softy" when it comes to the women in my life (2 daughters, and a GF), I'm also a man of honor who has manners and treats women accordingly. I open doors for my GF, and am old-school on many things in my life, something my GF greatly appreciates. In fact, my GF loves that I'm so masculine and chivalrous.

That said, I would NOT cabeceo another woman without clearing it with my GF / dance partner first (would check to see if we're going to dance with others), nor would I just approach (or cabeceo) a follower out of the blue who's obviously with a partner (husband, BF, or whomever). If she was looking my way, intent on dancing, and I was 'cleared-hot' (firing range lingo here), and I was in the position to dance with someone other than my GF, I would cabeceo her. But would approach the man beforehand (if they were sitting together) to 'get the nod' before escorting her to the ronda.

 

[Brummbaer]

tango is not only supposed to be 'refined' (better than the way people conduct themselves in other dance styles)

Tango comes from the slums, not the ballroom floor. If you don't see that, or feel it, then it's died.
(attributed to Carmencita Calderon).

OK, it grew from the slums, from a mix of immigrant workers and music, but it added the rules of that society at the time. As it became more acceptable across the world, further customs were added from other cultures. You're trying to recognize your perception of a US custom: the etiquette you believe applies in your locale.

That's not wrong. Whether you feel you need your GF permission to cabeceo another woman is down to your relationship (my wife also might sometimes say I ought to invite X for a tanda, but that's our relationship).

"The general rule of thumb is that when you approach any couple you will need to engage both in this agreement."

Yes. What's wrong with a genteel culture? Certainly if I don't know them, but if these are 'regulars' at the milonga, and we've become acquainted over many previous occasions, then maybe not if the leader/male is dancing with another follower and his partner is left (or vice-versa). And similarly any LGBTQ+, etc 'partners'. Or maybe one partner is away on business, so only one attends (the other partner may be at another milonga!).

It all depends on the style of milonga you attend, the culture of the locale, and the group attending. It just comes down to 'respect' for others.

 

[opendoor]

...would approach the man beforehand (if they were sitting together) to 'get the nod' before escorting her to the ronda..

However, I assumed that. Cabeceoing at a table is absolutely no-go. Here the codigos are clear: to ask at a table, you have to introduce yourself in personam. This rule is very important in the traditional milongas in BsAs, at least the ones I visited. There are/were always separate areas for singles and for couples/groups at tables.

 

[Rabbit]

"The general rule of thumb is that when you approach any couple you will need to engage both in this agreement."

This only applies if you are walking up. If she already invited you via mirada/cabeceo, she doesn't need permission and I think it is a bit disrespectful to imply that she does, especially since sometimes they are not actually a couple.

 

[TTanguero]

This only applies if you are walking up. If she already invited you via mirada/cabeceo, she doesn't need permission and I think it is a bit disrespectful to imply that she does, especially since sometimes they are not actually a couple.

Yes to all of that. Sure, in formal BsAs milongas, the 'When in Argentina' rule applies, but elsewhere it's extremely insulting to act like a woman needs permission from a man in order to dance. As Rabbit says, unless you know the couple, you also have no way to know what their relationship is.

 

[Brummbaer]

elsewhere it's extremely insulting to act like a woman needs permission from a man in order to dance.

Not every 'elsewhere', but yes, it is considered insulting rather than gallant in most western cultures. Sometimes you have to figure out what applies first, and sometimes people want to play at nostalgia.

After responding here I got a whole load of YT suggestions about what was acceptable in the US but not in Europe.

 

[opendoor]

..in the US but not in Europe..

Do you really think it's the continents? Aren't sociological factors more important? Education, urban-rural divide, denomination?

 

[Brummbaer]

Do you really think it's the continents? Aren't sociological factors more important? Education, urban-rural divide, denomination?

It's not one single thing, but location, and access, is probably the one of the most significant, especially since that also influences contact with other cultures. Europe is not homogenous, but contact gave some insights. I would insult many nationalities to say the French were like the Germans, or that the Germans were like the British, or even that Scots were like the English. Or how do the Scandinavian countries differ from southern Europe? Or the hypothetical US question of Why can't I take my guns into Europe? Nevertheless if we work and communicate together, bits rub off into other cultures, e.g. hygge and Gemütlichkeit Education, town/rural, even religion all contribute. If we're visiting another country then it's wiser to observe what happens. Similarly we can create our myth of golden era Argentinian codigos and how they're applied. It's not wrong. It may even appear gallant and become the etiquette of that locale. But it's not necessarily how it works elsewhere.

To the original point of

The general rule of thumb is that when you approach any couple you will need to engage both in this agreement.

Yes - but there are exceptions depending on your knowledge of the situation. Maybe s/he needs rescuing...

 

[Tango Newbie]

This only applies if you are walking up. If she already invited you via mirada/cabeceo, she doesn't need permission and I think it is a bit disrespectful to imply that she does, especially since sometimes they are not actually a couple.

I agree. But, if her partner is still sitting as she walks in my direction I'd be glancing over to at least acknowledge him, even if it's just a glace, smile, or nod.

 

[Tango Newbie]

Yes - but there are exceptions depending on your knowledge of the situation. Maybe s/he needs rescuing...

I suppose anything is possible. That quote about the general rule of thumb was an extract from the link about etiquette I provided (from Tango-Therapist blog).

 

[Tangogal]

I love the way the Americans are all "the gentlemanly thing to do is to acknowledge the man before dancing with the woman" and the Europeans and British all think it's quite insulting and disrespectful of the woman's autonomy. I'm generalizing but it just goes to highlight how much cultural differences play a part in what's considered polite and acceptable behaviour.

It should go without saying that cabeceo is not required when you are seated at the same table.

I also used the word "wife" as a general term as most of the couples in tango are either married or as good as married. In my experience most dance buddies do not act like a couple (he may buy her a drink but he's unlikely to check her coat).

 

[Brummbaer]

Europeans and British

OK, the UK (England) voted for Brexit, but some of us campaigned to be in the EU (and 'European' in a political and economic sense as well as geographical and cultural).

Europeans and British all think it's quite insulting and disrespectful of the woman's autonomy

And some of us don't find it unusual to be invited by the opposite gender - even when with a life partner. And, I should add, by the same gender.

But it depends where you are. The etiquette varies.

 

[opendoor]

..But it depends where you are..

Don't you think education plays a major role?

 

[Brummbaer]

Don't you think education plays a major role?

A role, but not major. The difference between upbringing (Erziehung) and education (Bildung) maybe? Obviously 'education' depends where you are, but the etiquette customs for a locale can be learned and taught.

Just take a look at reports on the behaviour of allegedly well 'educated' UK politicians at the moment. Not an example to follow.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Milonga Codes from Buenos Aires