CORTANDO THE OCHO... heeelp!

[opendoor]

.....How do I get the woman to hold the side step?

When you are going to stop in that position, a follower has to stop, too. But you have to prepare your halt, for she must have a chance to react. If she will not stop, it is not your fault any more! There are two possibilities when it will occur: open the embrace immediadly, let her go, and thus blame her.... (would find it nasty) or, stop her with your right hand, and the inside of your right elbow.

Very often it happend to me, that inexperienced followers start to run the molinete instead of stopping.

..... Do I have to step between her legs and hold my leg there??

Do not take your leg, at all, she would interprete that as a lead into a totally different direction. Note to take your left foot, and fetch her right gently. But you have to be quick then...

 

[Mario7]

Today, I had a first class with my new SECOND practice partner! ..She told me that her friend, (who is THE local tango instructor), sent her to me because she had seen (at the milonga) how much progress my first partner has made in her first few weeks (6hrs a wk)...wow, love it!:banana:

 

[opendoor]

congrats


cheers OD

 

[Steve Pastor]

Yeah, Mario, it's been a long slog for you.
It really feels good when all of your effort begin to take gel and other people recognize it.
Now, don't end up like me!

 

[Mario7]

Thanks for your support. I was reading Tango L this weekend and noticed the word 'convention' being used for figures that are done by rote more or less...that they are led but it isn't soooo precise that the man places the woman's feet with his hands..(my interpretation)...anyway, the real improvisation (according to 'Tony") was the use of the simple back, front, side steps wherever they seem appropriate spontaneously. ...OK, then it's OK for me to show my partner how the cortado is done and how her left leg is dragged, by the impulse of the move, in front of her right and how the left leg then suddenbly comes alive and she springs as in the Cruzada step.
Today, after 15 minutes of coaching and trial and error, she got it and NOW I CAN USE THE BEACHBALL CONCEPT!! ...yes, we may be cheating a little in someone's eyes but it's looking like the Ocho Cortado, it feels like it (I think) and it quacks like it ....so, it must be an Ocho Cortado! Success!! .. Next:bandit:

 

[AndaBien]

...OK, then it's OK for me to show my partner how the cortado is done and how her left leg is dragged, by the impulse of the move, in front of her right and how the left leg then suddenbly comes alive and she springs as in the Cruzada step.

I had no idea you were trying to lead 8-cortado without your partner already understanding how it goes. There are lots of moves you can do with a partner who is unschooled in tango, but 8-cortado isn't one of them. The cross-over step is not a natural step and she would naturally try to step in back, rather than in front.

Once you and she understand the movement, it's simple, I think. Yet, it allows for lots of nuance and variation.

 

[Dave Bailey]

The cross-over step is not a natural step and she would naturally try to step in back, rather than in front.

Only if she's being led to step back, surely?

If she's being led to cross, and she has space to cross, and she's actually following the lead, then why wouldn't she cross?

 

[Steve Pastor]

My experience has always been that people think they are supposed to a back step. Once your foot and leg have begun moving that way rather than collecting...

There is also that thing in many dancers (non ATers) heads that tell them to do a "step together" to get on the "right" foot rather than "cross" in front.

It takes a while to be retrained, more often than not in my experience.

 

[AndaBien]

Only if she's being led to step back, surely?

If she's being led to cross, and she has space to cross, and she's actually following the lead, then why wouldn't she cross?

In the daily lives of most people they would rarely take a step leaving their L foot crossed over to the right of their R foot. It's not a step people would normally take. The crusada is similar. I've had students who struggled with that idea. That's why I consider it un-natural.

I'm not thinking about trained AT dancers. I'm thinking about novices.

 

[bordertangoman]

In the daily lives of most people they would rarely take a step leaving their L foot crossed over to the right of their R foot. It's not a step people would normally take. The crusada is similar. I've had students who struggled with that idea. That's why I consider it un-natural.

I'm not thinking about trained AT dancers. I'm thinking about novices.

this is why i have rethought how to teach these kind of steps; people will instinctively put their foot under themselves to catch their weight if pushed; no AT training is required. If you imbue this principle in teaching AT then a lot of things become a lot easier to understand.

 

[bastet]

Only if she's being led to step back, surely?

If she's being led to cross, and she has space to cross, and she's actually following the lead, then why wouldn't she cross?

To further illustrate Anda's point. I also agree that a cross over is not natural..so why shouldn't she?

One large problem with people that are just learning tango is that their weight is not generally placed correctly when they first learn. Also, their free leg is generally stiff at the hip level.

In both of these instances, the natural reaction will be for the leg to go behind instead of in front of, no matter if there is room or not. She may indeed be following to the best of her current ability if she goes behind instead of in front if she's a beginner.

So you are left either teaching beginners a "pattern" of crossing (as happen in almost all classes)...OR...waiting a little while to show them about crosses til they can understand better about forward weight placement and the free leg....

Same thing with ochos...you can either teach them as pattern or wait a few months til people actually have the bodily awareness and control to really lead and follow it.

 

[bastet]

this is why i have rethought how to teach these kind of steps; people will instinctively put their foot under themselves to catch their weight if pushed; no AT training is required. If you imbue this principle in teaching AT then a lot of things become a lot easier to understand.

not if they are beginners and are backweighted, they catch themselves behind and not in front.

 

[Mario7]

not if they are beginners and are backweighted, they catch themselves behind and not in front.

Yes, this is exactly what I observed in my practice partner (a beginner of 3 and 4 weeks).

 

[Mario7]

So you are left either teaching beginners a "pattern" of crossing (as happen in almost all classes)...OR...waiting a little while to show them about crosses til they can understand better about forward weight placement and the free leg....Same thing with ochos...you can either teach them as pattern or wait a few months til people actually have the bodily awareness and control to really lead and follow it.

This is VERY reassuring. I was thinking " I'll cheat a little here (pattern) and trust that later we will own the step with more skill..".. I think that we will.:kissme:

 

[Mario7]

You know, the more I think about this and watch videos, the more I'm convinced to modify the figure and dance this quarter turn to the right..90degrees...here's what it looks like starting 19 seconds into this dance..if done slowly with elegance like (well, something like) this great dancer, it's truly beautiful...the thing is NOT to rush it. (at 19secs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktw5UVHSMv4
I would not call it an ocho cortado nor would I call it a front ocho...is it?