CORTANDO THE OCHO... heeelp!

[Subliminal]

It's a front ocho, I think. The main difference is how much room you give the follower, and if you lead the cross instead of the full pivot.

You can rush it if the music says to. I've done milonga speed Ocho Cortados. Hard, but fun.

 

[JohnEm]

Thanks for your support. I was reading Tango L this weekend and noticed the word 'convention' being used for figures that are done by rote more or less...that they are led but it isn't soooo precise that the man places the woman's feet with his hands..(my interpretation)...anyway, the real improvisation (according to 'Tony") was the use of the simple back, front, side steps wherever they seem appropriate spontaneously. ...OK, then it's OK for me to show my partner how the cortado is done and how her left leg is dragged, by the impulse of the move, in front of her right and how the left leg then suddenbly comes alive and she springs as in the Cruzada step.

OK, I'll make an effort to persuade you of the error of your ways in both of you learning the OC as a set routine without perfecting technique first. Believe me, I know this from experience. The OC is only a commonly executed series of movements. The name is invented to label them and market tango lessons or make tango more accessible, whichever you prefer.

Tango is improvised almost one step at a time. It takes time as a leader to feel that, to be absorbed and involved with the music and respond to it with whatever feels appropriate to your partnership at the time and its abilities (not just your own). Meanwhile it's tempting to learn set routines, after all it's what teachers teach to give students a feeling of achievement which encourages them to come back repeatedly to classes. And classes can be very deconstructive, always not sure of what you are doing, learning, learning, learning instead of dancing, dancing, dancing.

Even worse you are getting your relative beginner partner into the habit of routines and pre-ordained patterns. You are doing her no favours. All leaders have experienced ladies completing the movement she thought it was rather than the one you intended. The common OC error is for her to end at the collect with a step into the forward ocho. To do this she has twist her torso away from you as it completely ignores your cross lead. It feels bad to you and perversely she probably thinks what a poor leader you are as you haven't disassociated to accommodate her. So you do learn to expect that possibility and release her. After all you can't clamp someone into the embrace against her will!

You should preferably perfect the individual components of the OC.
Talking about a foot drag into the cross doesn't seem right. It may be just your interpretation but the leg, and hence the foot, hang free, above the floor. Provided she has good balance and tone it should be a feeling to your partner that she has no alternative but for the foot/leg to float over the floor into the cross. It's weird and wonderful to feel, get someone to lead you and find out.

So lead the cross with a slight anticlock rotation. You may need to perfect body posture, tone, core strength and weighting or maybe your partner may need to. And bit by bit work on everything else with permutations. Get the simple stuff into your system and working fluidly and almost subconsciously, you seem to have the time. It may seem less rewarding, tedious even but it isn't in the long run. Think of it as the tango equivalent of a musician practising scales. It's easy to think that good dancing just happens: in the main it doesn't.

And I nearly forgot. Find practice partners who are somewhere nearer your ability/experience. Being the ongoing surrogate teacher of beginners doesn't necessarily help improve your own tango. But please reach them right, lead one step at a time, be patient while getting her to follow your chest, never breaking the connection. It pays off in the end. I have a wonderful practice and dance partner now as a result of all that. Still room for improvement in both of us and perhaps that will be the case for ever. But we both love Tango.

That's enough except to say it's your choice of course. Some argentinians will say make Tango your own which seems to be rather mysterious. But what they are really saying is it's improvised, we all improvise differently with our different bodies, minds and feelings. All we need to know, absorb and practice are the techniques and the movement possibilities. Then lose yourself, with your partner, in Tango; there's nothing like it.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Provided she has good balance and tone it should be a feeling to your partner that she has no alternative but for the foot/leg to float over the floor into the cross.

Yes, that's the way I see it also.

Given a minimum level of technique from the follower, the ocho cortado should be totally leadable in any combination and variation.

And if the follower doesn't have this level of technique, then obviously they first need to work on getting to that level.

 

[bastet]

Well- I'm going to go out on a limb here and explain my position as a follow on this...pun intended...

My partner leads both varieties of endings to the OC, and I consider the step through a variety of OC endings. Also, though I consider myself mostly a close embrace dancer, I'm going to use some Nuevo methodology here and perhaps get you to think a little differently about the step.

Both, IMO are front croses (in the Nuevo sense of the word) where the partners hips are techincally crossed to one another whether it is a step through (front ohco), or what a call a "flat" or square cross (the typical OC ending you see where the follows hips remain square to the leader). This is why I just consider them varieties of each other. It's a little like Toplogy (Math) where a donut is the same thing as a coffee cup.

Both options can be led. The way my partner and I view it, the leader indicated the difference by whether he is attempting to remain "square" to his partner on the rebound. If he opens his left side away from me at some point as or just before I rebound, I feel more space open up and generally (hee hee) respond with a step through. We have found many leads naturally tend towards one or the other, and don't often understand they think they led one version, but in reality really led the other. OR...the follows only know how to respond with a step through and haven't learned to read the "square" lead and so turn themselves out habitually for a step through because that is most common where they are (like in the area I live in).

I also totally agree a beginner of 3-4 weeks shouldn't be having anything to do with crosses or ochos. Let people develop a little first. I hate to see people out dancing obviously memorized things. It just makes so many bad habits they have to unlearn later in their technique.

 

[tangonuevo]

...
And if the follower doesn't have this level of technique, then obviously they first need to work on getting to that level.

Over way too many years of teaching - both in academia and on the dance floor - I have worked with students with a huge range of learning styles. At one extreme, one teaches patterns by rote and over time the dancer begins to understand and assemble the underlying technique. At the other extreme, grasshopper, you only do technique and the assemble that into a dance. For most, neither are perfect, and thus for the great majority of people I've taught, there is a blend that works best.

From what I've read here, I do think that for Mario & partner are well served to learn OC, as well as a half dozen other figures, simply as patterns. Then they can work backwards from these to understand what lead would make them happen. THEN, Mario can try to apply the lead to other things and with other partners to see if they work. If so, yay. If not, it is back to the technique board.

 

[bastet]

Over way too many years of teaching - both in academia and on the dance floor - I have worked with students with a huge range of learning styles. At one extreme, one teaches patterns by rote and over time the dancer begins to understand and assemble the underlying technique. At the other extreme, grasshopper, you only do technique and the assemble that into a dance. For most, neither are perfect, and thus for the great majority of people I've taught, there is a blend that works best.

From what I've read here, I do think that for Mario & partner are well served to learn OC, as well as a half dozen other figures, simply as patterns. Then they can work backwards from these to understand what lead would make them happen. THEN, Mario can try to apply the lead to other things and with other partners to see if they work. If so, yay. If not, it is back to the technique board.

I don't disagree with you on this. I just think the timing is off by a month or so. A blend of both does tend to give the best overall results, it's just that timing thing, and when does someone have enough understanding to be able to make it functional and have some ability to at least put the underlying techniques somewhere on their radar, even if they can't fully get their bodies to accommodate them. That, IMO, takes more than 3 weeks of lessons.

 

[dchester]

You know, the more I think about this and watch videos, the more I'm convinced to modify the figure and dance this quarter turn to the right..90degrees...here's what it looks like starting 19 seconds into this dance..if done slowly with elegance like (well, something like) this great dancer, it's truly beautiful...the thing is NOT to rush it. (at 19secs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktw5UVHSMv4
I would not call it an ocho cortado nor would I call it a front ocho...is it?

It's a front ocho, just done on the side. I do this quite a bit (a lot more than I do the ocho cortado).

 

[dchester]

Over way too many years of teaching - both in academia and on the dance floor - I have worked with students with a huge range of learning styles. At one extreme, one teaches patterns by rote and over time the dancer begins to understand and assemble the underlying technique. At the other extreme, grasshopper, you only do technique and the assemble that into a dance. For most, neither are perfect, and thus for the great majority of people I've taught, there is a blend that works best.

From what I've read here, I do think that for Mario & partner are well served to learn OC, as well as a half dozen other figures, simply as patterns. Then they can work backwards from these to understand what lead would make them happen. THEN, Mario can try to apply the lead to other things and with other partners to see if they work. If so, yay. If not, it is back to the technique board.

I agree with this. Patterns are not a bad way to teach, as long as the underlying technique is taught as well.

 

[JohnEm]

Well- I'm going to go out on a limb here and explain my position as a follow on this...pun intended...

My partner leads both varieties of endings to the OC, and I consider the step through a variety of OC endings. Also, though I consider myself mostly a close embrace dancer, I'm going to use some Nuevo methodology here and perhaps get you to think a little differently about the step.

I also totally agree a beginner of 3-4 weeks shouldn't be having anything to do with crosses or ochos. Let people develop a little first. I hate to see people out dancing obviously memorized things. It just makes so many bad habits they have to unlearn later in their technique.

As far as I understand Mario is trying to be an apilado dancer which means the embrace, heart to heart, chest to chest. So a Nuevo
lead here is confusing and , though I do agree with your Nuevo description, that sort of lead is not for apilado as it breaks the connection. The Ocho Cortado is mainly a Milonguero thing, in fact Milongueros may find it hard to lead an Ocho ending of the rotating collect after the cut side step. They don't seem to do it, I'll have to look for it now.

It's why I described followers breaking the connection to do it, they have to break out of the rotating collect. Thinking about it this ending, as the leader turns anticlockwise he would have to slow his upper body down to provide the right orientated disassociation so she's never lead into the cross. Interesting, I must try it. Perhaps I already do it without consciously thinking - I can't remember what happened in the last dance recently, it felt good though.

As for teaching patterns as part of the learning experience, yes they have their place for leaders to help show how to piece it together. Unfortunately leaders need partners in classes so the ladies learn them too. But I still believe they have no place in practice, especially as the emphasis for the ladies should be physical and mental technique and sensitivity. Mario may indeed recall things as patterns, we probably all do to learn, I just think it's preferable not to reinforce them as an automatic thing to a partner. It's doing her a favour in encouraging her to learn to follow moment by moment and it doesn't reduce the value of the practice to the leader. In fact it improves it. Indeed, mix it up. A lot.

 

[tangonuevo]

....But I still believe they [patterns] have no place in practice, especially as the emphasis for the ladies should be physical and mental technique and sensitivity....

I will disagree with this. For a absolute beginner, I think that patterns are, for many, the only way to go. The issue is training the body to allow it to do "unnatural acts". For example, as pointed out already, a cross is essentially never performed as we just walk through life. The D8CB teaches that this is indeed a possibility and helps create a muscle memory that says "a cross is OK". After the body learns that it is OK, then one can lead it and at that point, practice crossing and not crossing will create the desired sensitivity in both the lead and follow. But if a woman has never seen a cross, leading it is waaaaay hard. A woman will generally, and rightfully so IMO, fight you.

 

[JohnEm]

I will disagree with this. For a absolute beginner, I think that patterns are, for many, the only way to go. The issue is training the body to allow it to do "unnatural acts". For example, as pointed out already, a cross is essentially never performed as we just walk through life. The D8CB teaches that this is indeed a possibility and helps create a muscle memory that says "a cross is OK". After the body learns that it is OK, then one can lead it and at that point, practice crossing and not crossing will create the desired sensitivity in both the lead and follow. But if a woman has never seen a cross, leading it is waaaaay hard. A woman will generally, and rightfully so IMO, fight you.

Oh dear - and I seriously disagree with this!
The D8CB teaches a cross automatically follows the leader stepping outside ( I've even heard it described as being led by or as a result of the man stepping ouside) whereas Salon/Milonguero/Apilado (whatever) teaches and requires that if the leader steps outside the follower just keeps on walking.

I've seen the cross both taught exceptionally badly in in the Basic 8 (ok 8CB with DB) in Nuevo and from scratch exceptionally well for Salon with very thorough attention to technique and style. It can be done.

I learned 8CBwDB first. Then I had to unlearn the automatic pattern and it takes time and conscious effort, the very antithesis of the requirement for the best tango experience. But the unlearning was worth it.

Tango is improvised, learning a pattern is a very misleading and contradictory introduction. Tango has enough contradictions without introducing what was and is a lazy and convenient way to get people dancing some sort of tango. Speaking for Mario (sorry Mario), lazy tango isn't Mario's aim.

But I rather think we'll continue to disagree.

 

[Steve Pastor]

You may need to perfect body posture, tone, core strength and weighting or maybe your partner may need to. And bit by bit work on everything else with permutations. Get the simple stuff into your system and working fluidly and almost subconsciously, you seem to have the time. It may seem less rewarding, tedious even but it isn't in the long run. Think of it as the tango equivalent of a musician practising scales. It's easy to think that good dancing just happens: in the main it doesn't.

And this was exactly how I was taught apilado. It really doesn't work all that well without these things. And boy can you feel when it's not there.
So, for me it's seems like it's all...tango.

So lead the cross with a slight anticlock rotation.

After her moving foot has crossed in front of the weighted foot, yes?

 

[tangonuevo]

Oh dear - and I seriously disagree with this!
...

A challenge to you. Find someone who has never even seen tango, is clueless about it, and lead him to the cross. Then, without showing the person a cross or telling him what it is, explain the technique that he should follow with so that you can lead the cross.

These are very hard and I believe that most will fail or quit in frustration.

 

[dchester]

Tango is improvised, learning a pattern is a very misleading and contradictory introduction. Tango has enough contradictions without introducing what was and is a lazy and convenient way to get people dancing some sort of tango.

I don't think patterns are necessarily misleading or contradictory. They are teaching drills, and as long as you understand that, they are fine as a tool for learning. They just shouldn't be the only tool.

But I rather think we'll continue to disagree.

I agree with this, though.

 

[JohnEm]

After her moving foot has crossed in front of the weighted foot, yes?

The rotation is the lead of the left leg into the cross not after it.
It's a normal walk out of the cross or any other movement your heart desires that can be lead from the cross.

So Steve, we're going into a whole new area here.
The cross in writing is indeed a difficult thing - it should be felt not written and talked about!

The cross can be lead diagonally which a lot of followers seem to only know. In apilado a much better, more gentle lead is a small anticlockwise rotation as the man stands on his left while closing his right for the weight change.

Additiionally, as you step forward on your left foot a very slight clockwise rotation of your upper body only helps pre-position the ladies right foot (especially learners not yet achieving a good tango walk as you can vary the extent of that clockwise rotation to suit) and is good preparation for the cross.

A follower who is used to this lead cannot fail to cross as a result of the much more exaggerated 90deg rotation. It is unmistakeable.