CORTANDO THE OCHO... heeelp!

[Subliminal]

I'm going to agree with the cross is a pattern side. There is nothing natural about the movement until you practice it. Once you practice it, yes, it can be lead any number of ways.

 

[JohnEm]

A challenge to you. Find someone who has never even seen tango, is clueless about it, and lead him to the cross. Then, without showing the person a cross or telling him what it is, explain the technique that he should follow with so that you can lead the cross.

These are very hard and I believe that most will fail or quit in frustration.

What's the point of this complete irrelevance?
We aren't talking a beginner nor someone completely .
We're talking about practice after lessons and some self-learning,
they've seen tango, done some tango lessons, seen tango.

Could any of us explain tango without visuals of some sort.
No, we'd collect a follower in your arms and gently walk her round the floor.

Well I would and have done more than once.
Being Nuevo, you'd probably run round in circles,
but of course it would be the 8CB!
No leave the cross out and make it a 6CB.


(It's meant to be a joke!)

 

[bordertangoman]

A challenge to you. Find someone who has never even seen tango, is clueless about it, and lead him to the cross. Then, without showing the person a cross or telling him what it is, explain the technique that he should follow with so that you can lead the cross.

These are very hard and I believe that most will fail or quit in frustration.

I'm going to try this on the way to the station when I leave work with complete strangers...

 

[tangonuevo]

What's the point of this complete irrelevance?
...

The point is that it is easiest to learn the OC if you do it at least once as a pattern. For some, seeing it is enough to pattern it. My partner, an accomplished ballet dancer, can do this, not only with "patterns", but also body shaping and style. For me, I have to "walk through" any movement once or twice to get my muscles to understand what is expected. I am suggesting that all but a handful of gifted dancers need to do a walk through of something new at least once. THAT is teaching them by use of a pattern!!

BTW, I am the LAST to advocate dancing this way. It has even gotten to the point that if I ever do an entire tanda without leading something I've never done before my partner gives me a ration of sh!t about it.

 

[tangonuevo]

I'm going to try this on the way to the station when I leave work with complete strangers...

Good on ya.

 

[JohnEm]

The point is that it is easiest to learn the OC if you do it at least once as a pattern. For some, seeing it is enough to pattern it. My partner, an accomplished ballet dancer, can do this, not only with "patterns", but also body shaping and style. For me, I have to "walk through" any movement once or twice to get my muscles to understand what is expected. I am suggesting that all but a handful of gifted dancers need to do a walk through of something new at least once. THAT is teaching them by use of a pattern!!

BTW, I am the LAST to advocate dancing this way. It has even gotten to the point that if I ever do an entire tanda without leading something I've never done before my partner gives me a ration of sh!t about it.

And now, remarkably, we are in agreement on this point.

Of course you need to practise movement, there are many
things I've been taught and/or learned that don't work without
repetition of all kinds, first slowly, then quickly but the real fluidity
comes from mixing it up with other things, different entrances and exits. And partners.

Sometimes, sleeping on it helps.

 

[dchester]

And now, remarkably, we are in agreement on this point.

Of course you need to practise movement, there are many
things I've been taught and/or learned that don't work without
repetition of all kinds, first slowly, then quickly but the real fluidity
comes from mixing it up with other things, different entrances and exits. And partners.

Sometimes, sleeping on it helps.

Agreed. I think the only debate was on how to get to the point where they are ready for mixing it up. Whether it is the ocho cortado, or any other move/concept, I think it helps to have a simple pattern to focus on the new move/concept. However, you also need to include various possibilities for how else to start the move, along with trying possibilities/options for how to come out of it.

It's important to know that (pretty much) any step could come after any other step (even if some options are a lot easier than others).

 

[bastet]

As far as I understand Mario is trying to be an apilado dancer which means the embrace, heart to heart, chest to chest. So a Nuevo
lead here is confusing and , though I do agree with your Nuevo description, that sort of lead is not for apilado as it breaks the connection. The Ocho Cortado is mainly a Milonguero thing, in fact Milongueros may find it hard to lead an Ocho ending of the rotating collect after the cut side step. They don't seem to do it, I'll have to look for it now.

It's why I described followers breaking the connection to do it, they have to break out of the rotating collect. Thinking about it this ending, as the leader turns anticlockwise he would have to slow his upper body down to provide the right orientated disassociation so she's never lead into the cross. Interesting, I must try it. Perhaps I already do it without consciously thinking - I can't remember what happened in the last dance recently, it felt good though.

As for teaching patterns as part of the learning experience, yes they have their place for leaders to help show how to piece it together. Unfortunately leaders need partners in classes so the ladies learn them too. But I still believe they have no place in practice, especially as the emphasis for the ladies should be physical and mental technique and sensitivity. Mario may indeed recall things as patterns, we probably all do to learn, I just think it's preferable not to reinforce them as an automatic thing to a partner. It's doing her a favour in encouraging her to learn to follow moment by moment and it doesn't reduce the value of the practice to the leader. In fact it improves it. Indeed, mix it up. A lot.

I wasn't actually talking about leading an OC Nuevo "style" but about the basic idea in "Nuevo" pedagogy that a cross and stepping in a front ocho across your partner are actually the same thing...in that the partners hips are crossed to each other rather than "open".

You can lead a step through without "breaking" the embrace, you just have to roll it a little.

I also dance mainly close embrace (apilado style) and I have had many lessons with (close embrace dancing) Argentines who tend to get very confused by what they see as American's often strict interpretation of the embrace as never moving and never changing...most of them shift or roll it a little in accordance to the movment, though they never "break it" per say, as in break to open embrace, where there is light between the couple.

 

[bastet]

The rotation is the lead of the left leg into the cross not after it.
It's a normal walk out of the cross or any other movement your heart desires that can be lead from the cross.

So Steve, we're going into a whole new area here.
The cross in writing is indeed a difficult thing - it should be felt not written and talked about!

The cross can be lead diagonally which a lot of followers seem to only know. In apilado a much better, more gentle lead is a small anticlockwise rotation as the man stands on his left while closing his right for the weight change.

Additiionally, as you step forward on your left foot a very slight clockwise rotation of your upper body only helps pre-position the ladies right foot (especially learners not yet achieving a good tango walk as you can vary the extent of that clockwise rotation to suit) and is good preparation for the cross.

A follower who is used to this lead cannot fail to cross as a result of the much more exaggerated 90deg rotation. It is unmistakeable.

There's also a lot of ways to lead a cross, all of them valid. There's no one correct way to lead a cross.

A teacher in Portland spent an entire year a few years ago teaching different ways to get to crosses...a whole year of it...

 

[JohnEm]

I wasn't actually talking about leading an OC Nuevo "style" but about the basic idea in "Nuevo" pedagogy that a cross and stepping in a front ocho across your partner are actually the same thing...in that the partners hips are crossed to each other rather than "open".

You can lead a step through without "breaking" the embrace, you just have to roll it a little.

I also dance mainly close embrace (apilado style) and I have had many lessons with (close embrace dancing) Argentines who tend to get very confused by what they see as American's often strict interpretation of the embrace as never moving and never changing...most of them shift or roll it a little in accordance to the movment, though they never "break it" per say, as in break to open embrace, where there is light between the couple.

Well I've no idea what you mean by crossed hips and not sure I want to know. There are enough sorts of crosses already in tango.
But there's no way I can see that the orientation of the hips/pelvis are the same for a cross and an ocho. However . . not sure that pursuing that discussion would have meaning or be helpful.

And what is Neuvo Pedagogy? When I first came across that word I had to get the dictionary out and then a teacher wrote pedagogical
which I suppose might mean a scientific teaching method. Maybe.
This is tango. Tango is an art form, not a science.

I certainly take your point over releasing the embrace and allowing a roll of your partner around the man's chest. Actually this seems to be a method of accommodating a lack of disassociation of leader or partner or both. It's something I'm consciously working on to avoid breaking the connection with a partner I have who can disassociate without thinking, never had to learn it, just does it. It quite took me by surprise to see her freely twist for the back step in a close hold giro. Added to the fact that I find it quite strange to have a partner's chest rolling around on mine, very odd in a sort of nice way.

And there's no disagreement from me about various methods of leading the cross, I mentioned three in the post I referred to. However the OC cross ending, the reason for this discussion, is a result of a 90deg anticlockwise turn into a collect from the sidestep.
Making sure that the follower can easily follow a heart to heart rotational lead into the cross seems to me to be an important ability to help make it work.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Well, since this didn't go away...
I thought I had quite the course with a 6 week class!
(I think I saw that course announcement, and thought, I already know way more than I can use!)
One thing when you develop in learning apilado thoroughly - with both you and your partner incorporating the things JohnEm listed - is being able to "feel" or "envision" the movement of your partner's body in relation to what you do with your own; becuase you become one body.

Good point that there is more than one way.

Frankly, I really miss those women who were taught how to connect well enough, and step well enough, to make it possible to feel their every move.
Sigh...

 

[bastet]

Well I've no idea what you mean by crossed hips and not sure I want to know. There are enough sorts of crosses already in tango.
But there's no way I can see that the orientation of the hips/pelvis are the same for a cross and an ocho. However . . not sure that pursuing that discussion would have meaning or be helpful.

And what is Neuvo Pedagogy? When I first came across that word I had to get the dictionary out and then a teacher wrote pedagogical
which I suppose might mean a scientific teaching method. Maybe.
This is tango. Tango is an art form, not a science.

I certainly take your point over releasing the embrace and allowing a roll of your partner around the man's chest. Actually this seems to be a method of accommodating a lack of disassociation of leader or partner or both. It's something I'm consciously working on to avoid breaking the connection with a partner I have who can disassociate without thinking, never had to learn it, just does it. It quite took me by surprise to see her freely twist for the back step in a close hold giro. Added to the fact that I find it quite strange to have a partner's chest rolling around on mine, very odd in a sort of nice way.

And there's no disagreement from me about various methods of leading the cross, I mentioned three in the post I referred to. However the OC cross ending, the reason for this discussion, is a result of a 90deg anticlockwise turn into a collect from the sidestep.
Making sure that the follower can easily follow a heart to heart rotational lead into the cross seems to me to be an important ability to help make it work.

I believe pedagogy is the right word... and it may indeed be an entirely new topic...

But if you go on the basis of those that purport that "Nuevo" does not mean a style, but a method of teaching. The basic idea (that I recall in classes I had with "Nuevo" teachers) is that it was broken down to the most basic idea that there are 3 steps (or positions) in tango that all others can be built from, a front cross, back cross and open step.

The positions are based on the position of the hips of the partners and where the weight is at.

Best explanation I can give at the moment is this. If as an exercise, my partner and I were to take a step then if we both rotated in the same direction our hips remained parallel to each other, that is a "open" step. Ie, our hips remain open. (Try this by standing in front of your partner face to face and taking a forward or side or back step then imagine or try to rotate while leaving your feet in place and see what you hip alignment is to your partner)

Try the same thing in cross system. Your hips will not remain square to each other if you attempt to rotate, one of you will have hips that are "crossed" (you look like a pretzel) to the other. Front ochos and crosses are examples of front cross steps (hip alignment of partners are crossed) and back ochos are examples of "back crosses", the only difference being in where the weight or axis is in the step.

The relevance to this to the OC is that a front ocho ending and cross are the same thing (topologically) in that both of them leave the follows hips crossed to her partner if she were to leave her feet in place and try to turn. The main difference in whether a well trained follow takes one option versus the other being in how the leader is using his torso.

 

[AndaBien]

One of the my most memorable ideas came from my Biology 1a class: "God created the animals, and man created the phyla".

If you get my drift...

 

[JohnEm]

One thing when you develop in learning apilado thoroughly - with both you and your partner incorporating the things JohnEm listed - is being able to "feel" or "envision" the movement of your partner's body in relation to what you do with your own; becuase you become one body.

I agree completely and she feels the leaders body too.
What a wonderful silent connected communication it is.

The leader has to learn also to work out where the follower's feet are and cope with the difficulty of tracking which one is weighted or free in the crosswalk system. It's another complication but eventually it becomes more intuitive hopefully; it has for me.

Good point that there is more than one way.

Frankly, I really miss those women who were taught how to connect well enough, and step well enough, to make it possible to feel their every move.
Sigh...

How glad I am that we have some connected ladies here.
There are of course far too many without tone who couldn't even begin to lean apilado style, never mind maintain it. They haven't been taught it and of course they don't try and don't want to I guess. They don't know what they are missing.

But those ladies who can connect do know what the others are missing. The others are missing the true tango (rider - in my opinion!).

 

[bastet]

One of the my most memorable ideas came from my Biology 1a class: "God created the animals, and man created the phyla".

If you get my drift...

we do have a (sometimes) extreme tendency to categorize...some find it helpful and some don't...meh...I think a little is good, too much is too much.

Even though I don't dance "Nuevo" style much, I do think some of the classes had great exercises. (Or perhaps I just liked torturing my leader too much )

"take 3 (or 5) steps then the follower gets to call out the next step...."

It got increasingly harder as we moved past simple front/back/open instructions and added elements in like sacadas and ganchos and to see who could think faster, me or him...