Enough Classes

[Madahlia]

Have you considered trying to teach?

I was asked once to help with the teaching but for various reasons I'm reluctant. I'd find it hard to commit to giving the time regularly because I'm quite busy with other stuff, I would not be comfortable teaching groups of adults even though I teach kids for a living, and, largely, I don't feel I have the authority to teach tango. I'm still a student myself. Although that descriptive phrase, "In the country of the blind the one-eyed man is king", might be relevant. Sorry, not very PC. Do Americans have PC?


I agree with much of what Caminito says about teachers, also. I'm often
surprised to find that people who are relatively inexperienced are starting to teach, although it could be argued that it is still valuable where beginners are concerned and will help to "grow" the tango scene. We also have teachers who would not claim to be experts but are doing sterling work in maintaining a lively tango group in the area in the absence of other options.

I am of the belief that teaching methods are of equal importance to the level of skill of the teacher. They don't have to be maestros but they do need to know how to structure and deliver a class to improve the technique of all participants, diagnose problems and give feedback both to the group and to as many individuals as possible. Personally, I think at least a third of the class time should be devoted to pure technique exercises, a third to teaching a simple "move", the rest devoted to applying the technique to the move.

If these things aren't being taught in classes, what is the point of going to them to learn?

But they should be taught in every class. Teachers who can't or won't provide these basics are letting their students down. Taking the money but not delivering the goods.

Teachers visiting from Argentina often seem the worst in terms of lesson structure, although they can include the best, e.g. Nayla Vacca and her partner.

You also might be surprised that you may actually improve your own dance by teaching.

It would certainly force me to think clearly and systematically about the mechanics of moves, which, as a follower, I've never bothered with much. I'm not sure how much it would help me with the physical technique of managing my own body.

 

[UKDancer]

I am of the belief that teaching methods are of equal importance to the level of skill of the teacher.

I think more than equal. A teacher who can't teach will achieve nothing. Being able to dance quite well is not the same thing.

 

[Mladenac]

Teachers visiting from Argentina often seem the worst in terms of lesson structure, although they can include the best, e.g. Nayla Vacca and her partner.

I would agree and disagree with that.

The main problem here are organizers of the event (sb that lead some school and call themselves teacher)
They invite teacher and tell what they want. (Some teachers have good methods some don't)
Visitor teachers (VT) come and teach them what was arranged.
And the problem arises when VT find out that students don't have proper basics.
Students may be of the organizers or some students that come to the classes.

I have seen that on several occasions.

 

[Madahlia]

I would agree and disagree with that.

The main problem here are organizers of the event (sb that lead some school and call themselves teacher)
They invite teacher and tell what they want. (Some teachers have good methods some don't)
Visitor teachers (VT) come and teach them what was arranged.
And the problem arises when VT find out that students don't have proper basics.
Students may be of the organizers or some students that come to the classes.

I have seen that on several occasions.

I agree. The best chance of getting a good lesson that meets your needs is if the teacher already knows you and your ability level well - that can't usually happen with visiting teachers. It is a huge problem if visiting teachers arrive and find that students can't do the basics, or if the class has a big range of abilities.

 

[JohnEm]

It is hard to know how to defend myself here (and it clearly is impossible). We start off discussing classes and end up being insulted by people we have never met! Isn't the internet wonderful!

No insult was intended and I'm still not sure how you've read it like that.
It was just my direct answer to your complaints and frustrations about lessons
yet you indicated that you still continued to suffer the experience.

But I am amused at this:

Some tape would certainly be useful but I don't think it's your hands I'd be applying it to.

Don't you think that's a bit incongruous in view of your earlier comment?

Put your money where your mouth is, please.

If we ever find ourselves in the same place and I know who you are,
the best answer to that is dance.

Judging from what you've already written you have found your own answers,
and much that I agree with so I'm not going to repeat. It's a dance, no-one else
can make you dance, or improve your dance, except your own efforts.

I've been obsessed with technique since I started learning to dance tango. It is the best I can manage given the circumstances under which I dance. I would like it to be better still but am struggling to create opportunities in which to do it, given that classes often don't do the trick, unforgiveably (see above) and I spend a lot of time dancing with leaders whose technique is worse than mine (this sounds arrogant but I have no other way to defend myself) which tends to erode and undermine the efforts that I make.

It's twice now you've used the words "defend myself". Yet no-one is making accusations.
I wonder if excessive self-criticism and obsession with technique may be
getting in the way. I understand that dancing with the less able leaders
can result in a less than totally satisfactory dance in your view
but I don't see how that can actually erode your own competence.

 

[JohnEm]

Hi JohnEm.
Did I hit a nerve or something ?
Are you a teacher in the southern counties UK ?

Absolutely not!

You write yet another critique of tango teaching, and I could do the same,
but you still haven't proposed any alternative. Madahlia's comments are
much more reasoned and at least recognise that teachers, like them
or loathe them, play an important part in establishing tango here.

And it's unfair to exclusively criticise teachers. What about the role tango shows
have in implanting a desire to tango in the public's mind? It's not surprising
that flashy figures are taught because it's flashy figures that appeal and attract
many potential dancers. It's even where I started though I found the scene,
the teaching and the experience strangely unsatisfying. But with jive,
swing and ballroom experience and knowing what it was to actually dance,
rather than just laboriously execute figures, I looked elsewhere.

 

[Madahlia]

No insult was intended and I'm still not sure how you've read it like that.

If that was the case why didn't you just go ahead and type what you really thought?

Don't you think that's a bit incongruous in view of your earlier comment?

Yes indeed, it was intended to be cheeky and rude without being too direct, but at least I've admitted it!

If we ever find ourselves in the same place and I know who you are,
the best answer to that is dance.

Quite. Until that time it would be better to pretend to assume the best, no? God, no pressure, or anything. Hope I never bump into him. Please don't introduce me, anyone. Hmmm, at least it would give me the chance to check him out.....

I wonder if excessive self-criticism and obsession with technique may be
getting in the way.

You can't win. There's certainly a school of thought that doesn't seem to require technical competence in a follower as much as the ability to throw their heart into the dance and d*mn the consequences, but sadly, I can't subscribe to that.

I understand that dancing with the less able leaders
can result in a less than totally satisfactory dance in your view
but I don't see how that can actually erode your own competence.

Because it blunts sensitivity, reduces self-confidence, reinforces poor habits and wastes valuable time which at my age may not be made up later. Much as, for example, a leader may develop a habit of over-forceful leading if they continually dance with poor followers.

 

[Shandy]

.................
Same applies. I'm near having to tape my hands now!

Improving your technique is above all of worth to you first.
Improve your technique, or make it the best you can, and
the benefit to you is better dances with better partners.
So do it for selfish reasons if you must.

Above all, both go and dance at milongas and/or practicas.
That's what it's about, not whether or how long you do classes.

Thank you for your comment but I'm surprised my situation makes you want to 'tape your hands'!

I'd love to reduce the money spent on worthless (to me) lessons. Giving up AT is a perfectly logical answer to my problem.

I've not been very successful at milongas - now that's MY problem - but improving my technique is NOT getting me more dances (let alone dances from better partners). Again, MY problem but I stand by my comment that there is nothing I can do to change that situation so am working through accepting it and deciding whether its worth continuing.

I'm fully aware of the benefits to ME in improving my dance technique, I suppose I'm working out whether I want to make my AT experience a studio dance (ie. private lessons only) and forget all the hype about it being a social dance. (This situation is not new to me, I was very happy when my ballroom dancing was taught at competition level but never tested outside the studio).

It might not be tango and you know it, but it might be the best on offer for me!

 

[caminito]

Perhaps my history/CV may explain my comments about UK teachers ?

All my mother's family were theatre people. My grandparents met on stage at the Drury lane theatre. My mother was a professional dancer until she married my father.
So I was brought up in a music/dance environment .. Lee Wiley and Billie Holiday were always being played on the record player when I was a kid. Music with feeling as my mother used to say to me as we danced around the floor !
I was taught ballroom for five years and danced in a formation team . Jive and swing were always my favourites though. Used to have some great dances with my mother. She was a exceptional dancer !

I have danced tango in Argentina ( BsAS & Mar del Plata ) , UK , France , USA & Spain.
So I have had a good look around at what is going on in other countries .,which is why I am a critic on the whole of tango teaching here in the UK. . Quantity but little quality !
To many relatively new dancers calling themselves tango teachers.
Obviously there is always exceptions but in my view they are few and far between.
The word " teaching" tango is not what I think you should call it anyway.
Tango Argentino is not just learning steps or figures , it is a feeling ,an emotion , a way of life also !
It takes years and years to get to a point where you can help somebody else to find their own path . To hopefully " feel " tango .
I am still treading my own path........ There is no end ........It is a never ending journey.
There is only a few people in the UK who I could recommend to help dancers find their path. There is probably others but I don't know of them !
Jill Barrett & Biljana Lipic are two such people.
I learnt so much from just talking to and watching Ricardo Vidort, Carlos Capello ,Omar Vega , Osvaldo & Coca , Eduardo Cappussi , Johana Copes etc
I got the chance to dance with Johana Copes about three years ago and it was wonderful.
Scary at first but she is a lovely person !
I have been lucky ( or made my own luck ) to have talked or danced with them . Yes, I danced with Ricardo !!!!
I have a great video that I took in Cochabamba 444 of Cappussi dancing Milonga Traspie.
A friend of mine , Maria, was married to him for a while.

As Jantango knows there are so many other great dancers in BsAs you can watch and learn from !
So ,to answer the question from JohnEm , what alternative would I suggest rather than going to local classes.
Every now and then , Jill Barrett organises musicality classes with Joachim Amenabar.
Try that , Ask around , there are some good opportunities to learn but go for quality not quantity

JohnEm . You said that I generalise in my remarks about UK teachers Well , I can't name names or venues because that would be unfair . Afterall , it is my opinion ,others may not agree with me ?

I think that your statement " I looked elsewhere " is a pretty broad statement . Perhaps you could expand on it ?
I did not have to tape my hands when posting this message because I don't feel angry or vunerable . Seen it ,done it ,got the T shirt pretty much Disappointed maybe ? Disappointed that a great opportunaty seems to have been missed to create a tango enviroment of good dancing with great music.
Perhaps , JohnEm , you could give us members a little insight into your tango background , teachers, tango travels etc and why you seem to get upset with us lesser tango mortals and feel that you want to tape your hands ?
Everybody here has a right to express their feelings and frustrations ,
Let's put our points of view without personal criticisms.

 

[dchester]

I was asked once to help with the teaching but for various reasons I'm reluctant. I'd find it hard to commit to giving the time regularly because I'm quite busy with other stuff, I would not be comfortable teaching groups of adults even though I teach kids for a living, and, largely, I don't feel I have the authority to teach tango. I'm still a student myself. Although that descriptive phrase, "In the country of the blind the one-eyed man is king", might be relevant. Sorry, not very PC. Do Americans have PC?

I agree with much of what Caminito says about teachers, also. I'm often
surprised to find that people who are relatively inexperienced are starting to teach, although it could be argued that it is still valuable where beginners are concerned and will help to "grow" the tango scene. We also have teachers who would not claim to be experts but are doing sterling work in maintaining a lively tango group in the area in the absence of other options.

To be able to bring in "qualified" teachers (whatever that means), there needs to be a large enough tango group/community (and interested in the "style"/techniques/etc. you want) to make it economically viable.

The question then becomes, what to do to obtain that critical mass? We all are students, until someone believes they know all there is to know (or simply have no interest in learning any more).

BTW, we do have PC in the US, (although it does seem to run counter to our tradition of free speech).

 

[JohnEm]

Quite. Until that time it would be better to pretend to assume the best, no? God, no pressure, or anything. Hope I never bump into him. Please don't introduce me, anyone. Hmmm, at least it would give me the chance to check him out.....

LoL. Anyway I'd probably be a big disappointment.

You can't win. There's certainly a school of thought that doesn't seem to require technical competence in a follower as much as the ability to throw their heart into the dance and d*mn the consequences, but sadly, I can't subscribe to that.

And it should be clear that nor do I subscribe to that. Embedded good technique
helps get to that point of letting go and just dance. It's the means not the end.

Because it blunts sensitivity, reduces self-confidence, reinforces poor habits and wastes valuable time which at my age may not be made up later. Much as, for example, a leader may develop a habit of over-forceful leading if they continually dance with poor followers.

OK I'll take your point especially as I certainly am aware of your leader problem.

 

[UKDancer]

To be able to bring in "qualified" teachers (whatever that means), there needs to be a large enough tango group/community (and interested in the "style"/techniques/etc. you want) to make it economically viable.

What's your definition of a qualified teacher, then?

 

[JohnEm]

Thank you for your comment but I'm surprised my situation makes you want to 'tape your hands'!

Only because from reading what you originally wrote it would have been easy
to write the wrong thing. And from you've said now it would have been.

 

[JohnEm]

Perhaps my history/CV may explain my comments about UK teachers ?

Yours is not a normal social dancer's background but perhaps it explains
some of your opinions.

I think that your statement " I looked elsewhere " is a pretty broad statement . Perhaps you could expand on it ?
I did not have to tape my hands when posting this message because I don't feel angry or vunerable .

I wish I hadn't written sitting on hands nor taping now! Now I infer that
you think I might have felt angry or vulnerable? Don't know why and don't want to know.

Perhaps , JohnEm , you could give us members a little insight into your tango background , teachers, tango travels etc and why you seem to get upset with us lesser tango mortals and feel that you want to tape your hands ?

Odd isn't it that you criticise teachers about their claims and then set out your own.
Odd too that you seem to accuse me of regarding you as a "lesser tango mortal"
yet you have disparaged virtually every tango teacher in the country.
And there's the tape comment again, taken out of context.

Everybody here has a right to express their feelings and frustrations ,
Let's put our points of view without personal criticisms.

How about you following your own advice?

 

[Nathan]

I wish I hadn't written sitting on hands nor taping now! Now I infer that
you think I might have felt angry or vulnerable? Don't know why and don't want to know.

Unless you don't care at all about being misunderstood, it could benefit you to know why!

"Sitting on one's hands" could be interpreted as a nervous habit stemming from a feeling of insecurity (children do this a lot while fidgeting). "Taping [up] one's hands" sounds very much like what a boxer (or a streetfighter!) might do when preparing for a fight. I take it that these are not what you meant, but they could be taken as such!