Enough Classes

I noticed she didn't keep her heel tips on the floor nor did she know how to embrace her partner. She did not know after countless classes to keep her heels on the floor.

I have had instruction on heels run the gamut. I have been told not to put my heels down, not to lift my heels up, as well as to work through my foot from toe to heel or from metatarsal to heel. I have been told not to turn my feet out at all, to turn them out slightly, and probably other things as well.

I have seen women who dance in flats as high up on their toes as they can, never lowering their heels at all, and women who wear heels and plonk their foot down all at once like they're wearing a block of cement or a dead fish on the end of their leg.

I have felt stable with my heels off the floor, unstable with them on the floor and vice versa for both.

And I've had an amazing teacher show me how proper use of certain core and pelvic area muscles can have far more implications for stability and grounding than anything done with the feet or even the knees. I say she showed me because SHE could use her muscles that way... I'm still learning to feel those muscles.

What I've learned from all this both by my own experience and helping other followers solve their problems is that the feet are sometimes the cause of a problem, but sometimes they are the result of a problem. If followers spent more time thinking about the less visable and sexy aspects of their dancing (ie: what their feet look like) and more time working on the subtle and invisible (except to the leader) elements, they'd usually be better followers.

Unfortunately, the leaders may not think so. They are often (especially as beginners or intermediate leaders) conditioned by the culture to think the person who LOOKS the best is the best follower. It becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

It would be interesting to have leaders dance with partners that they can't observe dancing with other people choose partners only by the way the followers FEEL. I wonder if they would choose differently than they do? (Obviously none of the good folks HERE are swayed by superficial appearances of dance, but out there in the rest of the world, leaders aren't so wise.;) )

I guess my point in response to Jan's post is that it is true that often a follower creates problems for herself by dancing with her heels off the floor. But ultimately, it's what she feels like to the leader that matters, and IF she feels connected and stable to him, then what she is doing is working for her regardless of her heels.

In response to the OP... I gave up on group classes as a follower some time ago. I'm about to give up on privates as well. I've had a slew of them where I realized (by arriving early, staying after, or talking to other students) that the teacher told every one of us the exact same thing... which says to me, that he wasn't really paying that much attention to our individual quirks and errors. (I say "he" because IME, this has not been true of lessons I had with women. But that could just be a coincidence.)
 
In response to the OP... I gave up on group classes as a follower some time ago. I'm about to give up on privates as well. I've had a slew of them where I realized (by arriving early, staying after, or talking to other students) that the teacher told every one of us the exact same thing... which says to me, that he wasn't really paying that much attention to our individual quirks and errors. (I say "he" because IME, this has not been true of lessons I had with women. But that could just be a coincidence.)

Posted earlier that I'm working through whether to give up on AT, and the above bit of your post really resonated with me.

About 20 minutes of my private has been about the teacher trying out a new sequence on me that they intend to teach in the group class. (I didn't realise this at first, but over time it has become obvious). Tbh, I don't need this 'heads-up', I will be one of the first to get the steps and most of technique involved. It feels as if the teachers are using MY private for them to LEARN how to teach the group class.

Obviously, now I state quite clearly what I want in that 20 min slot but I would like to trust my teachers to offer suggestions of what we should work on that is 100% about ME!

I do have privates with teachers that don't feel like this, but they are so far away and (for me) mega expensive that they can only be an occasional addition and I'm not sure enough to maintain my genuine enthusiasm for all things AT.
 
I'm about to give up on privates as well. I've had a slew of them where I realized (by arriving early, staying after, or talking to other students) that the teacher told every one of us the exact same thing... which says to me, that he wasn't really paying that much attention to our individual quirks and errors. (I say "he" because IME, this has not been true of lessons I had with women. But that could just be a coincidence.)

In my opinion the best teachers for leaders or followers are women. I have found women teachers are far better at leading than men teachers are at following. When you have a private you need the teacher to be competant in both roles. So I am not surprised at what you are saying Zoops.
 
I have found women teachers are far better at leading than men teachers are at following.

Should this be a surprise? The traditional model for learning AT was to learn to follow, in the embrace of an experienced leader, first, and only to lead later. Anyone who has learned to follow well develops an understanding of what the lead needs to convey, and develops an acute awareness of where the follower is, and why.

Rotating partners throughout classes does put off a significant minority of students, particularly existing dancers who have attended as a couple (and who do not yet understand the milonga norms), and I wonder whether a better approach, in the early weeks and months, would be to rotate roles, in couples, at least as often as rotating partners. I think that a beginner learning both the lead and follow might actually make faster progress than one who only learns one role.
 
Unless you don't care at all about being misunderstood, it could benefit you to know why! ;)

"Sitting on one's hands" could be interpreted as a nervous habit stemming from a feeling of insecurity (children do this a lot while fidgeting). "Taping [up] one's hands" sounds very much like what a boxer (or a streetfighter!) might do when preparing for a fight. I take it that these are not what you meant, but they could be taken as such!
Though I hadn't asked, thank you Nathan!

I think you'd have to read the comments out of context
to have those connotations. In my mind they were aimed
at myself not others. Obviously you can't be too careful.

I had never even thought of a connection to boxing
which is the very antithesis of tango.
 
I have had instruction on heels run the gamut. I have been told not to put my heels down, not to lift my heels up, as well as to work through my foot from toe to heel or from metatarsal to heel. I have been told not to turn my feet out at all, to turn them out slightly, and probably other things as well.

I have seen women who dance in flats as high up on their toes as they can, never lowering their heels at all, and women who wear heels and plonk their foot down all at once like they're wearing a block of cement or a dead fish on the end of their leg.

I have felt stable with my heels off the floor, unstable with them on the floor and vice versa for both.
an appropriate expression as 'gamut' alludes to the medieval musical scale of Guido d'Arezzo.
Its more the work the ball and arch do in making you arrive/leave the floor that is more important IMO.

the block of cement feet are horrible for the leader, but pretty much all the other versions work. I follow most often with heels up ( not that i have heels on my shoes0 but my heels are off the ground. I find this gives a 1/16th second edge on having my heels on the floor.


And I've had an amazing teacher show me how proper use of certain core and pelvic area muscles can have far more implications for stability and grounding than anything done with the feet or even the knees. I say she showed me because SHE could use her muscles that way... I'm still learning to feel those muscles.
lucky you...

What I've learned from all this both by my own experience and helping other followers solve their problems is that the feet are sometimes the cause of a problem, but sometimes they are the result of a problem. If followers spent more time thinking about the less visable and sexy aspects of their dancing (ie: what their feet look like) and more time working on the subtle and invisible (except to the leader) elements, they'd usually be better followers.

i quite agree

Unfortunately, the leaders may not think so. They are often (especially as beginners or intermediate leaders) conditioned by the culture to think the person who LOOKS the best is the best follower. It becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

It would be interesting to have leaders dance with partners that they can't observe dancing with other people choose partners only by the way the followers FEEL. I wonder if they would choose differently than they do? (Obviously none of the good folks HERE are swayed by superficial appearances of dance, but out there in the rest of the world, leaders aren't so wise.;) )
[/QUOTE]

there was a dancer with lacy flares who I would have loved to dance with because of the swirly effect they made..but she didnt look better or worse than other dancers around.
 
About 20 minutes of my private has been about the teacher trying out a new sequence on me
That has happened to me too. Interestingly, I did not mind at all. I believe it is a great way to test my follow, to find out what works well and what's lacking, what I have to focus on.
The good teachers inevitably end up learning a lot from the lessons they give, and it is only natural that they use their insights and discoveries in other lessons, including group classes. It is not necessarily detrimental to their students' progress.
Learning and teaching is a mutual process, and I actually enjoy being part of it. There is something we are doing together, but of course the teacher is guiding the process, brings his or her professional experience and expertise into it.

Personally I find that approach more effective than one that looks more like "I am a customer, and the instructor is providing a service" but of course your mileage may vary.
 
...Learning and teaching is a mutual process, and I actually enjoy being part of it. There is something we are doing together, but of course the teacher is guiding the process, brings his or her professional experience and expertise into it.

Personally I find that approach more effective than one that looks more like "I am a customer, and the instructor is providing a service" but of course your mileage may vary.

Interesting thought, but the teacher is, I assume, getting paid for his/her effort. I think it's fine for the teacher to be the guide, but the teacher's benefit is the money being exchanged, while the student's benefit must be their own improvement. But, if everyone is happy, there's no problem.
 
Interesting thought, but the teacher is, I assume, getting paid for his/her effort. I think it's fine for the teacher to be the guide, but the teacher's benefit is the money being exchanged, while the student's benefit must be their own improvement. But, if everyone is happy, there's no problem.
To tell you the truth, I cannot imagine a good teacher in any discipline doing it strictly for the money, and getting only monetary gain from the process.
 
That has happened to me too. Interestingly, I did not mind at all. I believe it is a great way to test my follow, to find out what works well and what's lacking, what I have to focus on.
With my privates, I usually ask first what they want to work on, then combine that with a list of what I think they need to work on. That gives a rough idea.

Sometimes / usually, we'll also discover during the session a few other things that should be worked on, and I'll decide whether to tackle them right there and then, or to defer them until another session.

So I think it's good to have a strategy, but it's better to be able to adapt your strategy to changing circumstances.
 
That has happened to me too. Interestingly, I did not mind at all. I believe it is a great way to test my follow, to find out what works well and what's lacking, what I have to focus on.
The good teachers inevitably end up learning a lot from the lessons they give, and it is only natural that they use their insights and discoveries in other lessons, including group classes. It is not necessarily detrimental to their students' progress.
Learning and teaching is a mutual process, and I actually enjoy being part of it. There is something we are doing together, but of course the teacher is guiding the process, brings his or her professional experience and expertise into it.

Personally I find that approach more effective than one that looks more like "I am a customer, and the instructor is providing a service" but of course your mileage may vary.


I totally agree with your comment and I hope I can explain to opendoor why I allowed it to continued. I didn't feel the 20 minutes was wasted, which is why I didn't feel the need to change it when I realised what was happening.

On the positive side: In this section of my lesson, I was being given (to me) something completely new without any demonstration from the teachers. I had to completely trust and follow. Often I surprised myself (and them) on what I DID get but just as often it highlighted gaps in my understanding.

The technque section of my lesson could then work on either the gap in my understanding that was highlighted, or develop the new technique/feel/musicality etc. that was being highlighted in the sequence.

The final section of my lesson would always be a positive experience because I could always bring something of the last 45 minutes to our free dancing. With the teachers being good enough to include the "lesson learnt" in a different way so I could understand and own the lesson outside of the "sequence" taught.

These lessons may not suit everyone but in certain circumstances they would be highly recommended. My only difficulty with the lesson is the boredom it generates at the group class, when its repeated over two nights. I hear the same comments as in my private lesson plus I can clearly see how they've developed the teaching from the problems generated in my lesson.

At first I derived pride now its boredom - something that wouldn't happen in a large vibrant AT community but in a small beginner/improver community that's how I feel.
 
Interesting thought, but the teacher is, I assume, getting paid for his/her effort. I think it's fine for the teacher to be the guide, but the teacher's benefit is the money being exchanged, while the student's benefit must be their own improvement. But, if everyone is happy, there's no problem.
I don't see how the two things are mutually exclusive. Of course the student is paying for help in improving, for which the teacher receives compensation. That doesn't mean the teacher isn't guiding (if teaching isn't guiding, I don't know what it is), and it doesn't mean that there aren't other benefits and motivations present, as well.
 

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