Enough Classes

[Valis]

I think any class that emphasizes figures and patterns over technique and body mechanics is probably a waste of time, money and effort. Over the years I've taken dozens of classes like that and I can only remember and use a handful of figures, but the classes where the teacher focused on technique are the classes that were and are the most useful and the most memorable.

I think part of the problem is that people who come to tango are expecting to dance like they've seen in a show and teachers may feel they'll lose them as students if they don't get them ochoing and boleoing right away. Whereas if beginners have the patience to learn how to properly walk, lead, follow, balance, change weight, keep posture and all the other basics, in the long run they'll be better leaders and followers, no matter what sort of classes they take or what sort of style they'll adopt.

 

[caminito]

I think part of the problem is that people who come to tango are expecting to dance like they've seen in a show and teachers may feel they'll lose them as students if they don't get them ochoing and boleoing right away

Valis ... You are so right .

In 2004 , I was in Lo de Celia with a group of friends. We were introduced to Ricardo Vidort & Osvaldo y Coca.
Osvaldo y Coca were celebrating a birthday or anniversary and were asked to perform an exhibition dance to "Poema"
Wow , we had never seen anyone dance like that before .
We were all still feeling completely shellshocked ,when about five milongueros ( ages averaging 70/75 yrs ) arrived at our table and asked our ladies ( wives & girlfriends) to dance. Organised by Ricardo & Laura Grinbank we found out later ! These guys had been dancing for about 60 years.
"what was it like" ,us men asked .Absolutely wonderful ,were the replies from the ladies .
But, they didn't seem to do much we said. ?
No ,but what they did was fabulous and completely to the music.
My wife said to me later that for the first time she was totally immersed in the music and was at one with her partner !
The first time that our ladies had truely danced tango ! We ALL changed our attitude and style from that day then on .

 

[Shandy]

I agree. I feel completely bored with classes because they very rarely seem to address my needs and I resent paying hard-earned money to be a dummy for the guys to practise on. (As I may have mentioned once or twice before. ) I have occasionally attended classes where time was devoted to followers' technique of the kind you mention. I don't see why classes can't be structured 50:50 to benefit both parties.

It's very frustrating because I need to move on but I am finding it hard to get opportunities to develop.

So with you on this one.

In my case, we're often so lacking leaders that my hard-earned money pays for me to sit and just watch for up to half the class. Then some of the leaders are so awful that my heart sinks when I have to be their dummy.

It's gotten so bad, I'm sitting here trying to work out whether its worth continuing with AT as there is nothing I can do to change the situation, as improving my own technique seems worthless to anyone other than me.

 

[UKDancer]

I think part of the problem is that people who come to tango are expecting to dance like they've seen in a show and teachers may feel they'll lose them as students if they don't get them ochoing and boleoing right away

This is true: but it's up to the teacher to convince the skeptical students that there is a better way. Then they go and teach the 8CB, and all is lost - there's no going back, except to start again.

 

[caminito]

Hi UKdancer.
You have hit the nail on the head.
A lack of good and experienced teachers is a major problem here in the UK.
Many started to teach after only a couple of years dancing themselves.
Anyone can set themselves up as a tango teaching school . Often they state that they have been taught by maestros ( Gavito ,Vidort etc) .What they really mean is that they attended a 2/3 hour workshop along with 50 other people.
They construct big websites with loads of recommendations from newbies who really have not experienced anything else but that teacher.
Masses of advertising , plenty of fancy words about musicality , balance, axis ,posture , etc etc . Blind them with science ! Gobbledygook
These teachers have really only been making it up as they went along.!
Many play a limited section of good tango music and introduce neo tango music to pad out the evening !
I see them all around the country .

 

[JohnEm]

Hi UKdancer.
You have hit the nail on the head.
A lack of good and experienced teachers is a major problem here in the UK.
Many started to teach after only a couple of years dancing themselves.
Anyone can set themselves up as a tango teaching school . Often they state that they have been taught by maestros ( Gavito ,Vidort etc) .What they really mean is that they attended a 2/3 hour workshop along with 50 other people.
They construct big websites with loads of recommendations from newbies who really have not experienced anything else but that teacher.
Masses of advertising , plenty of fancy words about musicality , balance, axis ,posture , etc etc . Blind them with science ! Gobbledygook
These teachers have really only been making it up as they went along.!
Many play a limited section of good tango music and introduce neo tango music to pad out the evening !
I see them all around the country .

This is far too generalised.
For every statement you make, there are exceptions.
It's not that I'm not much in favour of class based teaching,
beginner with beginner, but some teachers clearly do try
and do it better than you indicate.

And specifically you agree with criticising 8CB teaching (and from
experience so do I) yet then have a go at teachers teaching balance
axis and posture, all things that most newcomers have little idea about
and need to work at.

So instead of just disparaging every teacher in the country,
how do you suggest that tango is best learnt here.

 

[JohnEm]

I agree. I feel completely bored with classes because they very rarely seem to address my needs and I resent paying hard-earned money to be a dummy for the guys to practise on. (As I may have mentioned once or twice before. ) I have occasionally attended classes where time was devoted to followers' technique of the kind you mention. I don't see why classes can't be structured 50:50 to benefit both parties.

It's very frustrating because I need to move on but I am finding it hard to get opportunities to develop.

Oh I'm sitting on my hands here really, really trying not to type what I think!
Suffice to say you've reached the point of the original question, perhaps
just not prepared to admit it to yourself.

Tango it is said, never was taught in classes.
You can improve your tango ability in so many different ways
without going near a tango class nor even a tango teacher.

. . . .
. . . I'm sitting here trying to work out whether its worth continuing with AT
as there is nothing I can do to change the situation, as improving my own technique
seems worthless to anyone other than me.

Same applies. I'm near having to tape my hands now!

Improving your technique is above all of worth to you first.
Improve your technique, or make it the best you can, and
the benefit to you is better dances with better partners.
So do it for selfish reasons if you must.

Above all, both go and dance at milongas and/or practicas.
That's what it's about, not whether or how long you do classes.

 

[nucat78]

So it appears that the consensus of opinion (for the OP), is yes, classes might be a waste of time and / or money, depending on your personal experience and preferences (and the skill level of your instructor).

 

[UKDancer]

A lack of good and experienced teachers is a major problem here in the UK.

Well perhaps it is time that the major teaching societies started to take AT seriously, and having done so, started to be taken seriously by the AT community. Teachers who have been properly trained to teach (every bit as important as being competent as a dancer) have much to offer students in any dance style, and many existing teachers in other styles are perfectly well able to take on new challenges. Certification already exists (IDTA & UKA definitely, and ISTD have something in planning), but the current syllabii are rather dodgy.

 

[caminito]

Hi JohnEm.
Did I hit a nerve or something ?
Are you a teacher in the southern counties UK ?
When I started Tango there was only about 20 or so people learning tango in the south. Some were going to London , mainly to a specialised workshop with Gavito or others. Maybe the old welsh centre or somewhere similar.?
A couple of fortnightly classes started in Southampton and Portsmouth.
The teachers would go to London , learn a "figure" and come back and teach it to their pupils .This was 1999/2000 .
Many of the teachers that I see now running tango schools here in the south didn't start dancing until 2004+. I know because I knew them as beginners . .Their experience is only dressed up in fancy words when actually they have experienced very little good tango.
By this ,I mean , having extensive tuition/time with maestros of note. Trips to BsAs to soak up the atmosphere. Sometimes just sitting watching and talking with a real maestro can teach you more about tango than a thousand lessons. Tango is not just about steps !
There is far to much hype and promotion here in the UK as every visiting teacher is billed " world renowned visiting maestros " when in fact they are hardly known !
It's a business now !
I know for a fact that many of the true maestros were completely surprised when they were asked to teach in europe and the states.
Of course they took up the offers . The money was very handy but they had never thought of themselves as "teachers" before .
They had no experience of teaching .No diplomas or certificates, just 50/60
years of dancing tango !
It's all got a bit like selling washing powder or shampoo !
Hype , promotion , advertising , sales pitch .
The good teachers are far and few between .
Anyway that's how I see the current tango situation here in the UK.

 

[Madahlia]

Oh I'm sitting on my hands here really, really trying not to type what I think!
Suffice to say you've reached the point of the original question, perhaps
just not prepared to admit it to yourself.

It is hard to know how to defend myself here (and it clearly is impossible). We start off discussing classes and end up being insulted by people we have never met! Isn't the internet wonderful!

It's very frustrating because I need to move on but I am finding it hard to get opportunities to develop.

Let's unpick this a little.

I frequently ask the better local dancers (including the teachers) for feedback. They always say that there isn't a problem and appear unable to comment on anything they'd like me to do apart from what I'm already doing.

When I can afford it, I take private lessons. During practicas, I tell people what I would like to work on (being willing, of course to help them with whatever they want) but I usually draw a blank as it is hard to find someone with sufficient awareness of the issues that have been raised in private lessons. For example, how can I work on having a light right hand with someone who is gripping mine harder that I'm gripping his and doesn't see it as an issue? Local leaders mainly work on complex moves, they almost never seem to work on balance, posture, embrace, connection etc. Usually I can follow anything they lead - but that's not really the point for me, is it?

So I work on the issues by myself with little meaningful feedback, feeling that my dancing overall is actually getting worse instead of better.

My main opportunities for personal development depend on being able and willing to regularly travel long distances to get the right type of teaching and practice. I do this up to a limited degree but there is no assurance in any case. Many is the time I've made the effort to travel only to find I didn't learn anything or only got a few poor tandas (well, probably because I'm cr*p, of course ) and it takes a lot of determination to push forward in such circumstances.

Tango it is said, never was taught in classes.
You can improve your tango ability in so many different ways
without going near a tango class nor even a tango teacher.

Put your money where your mouth is, please.

Improving your technique is above all of worth to you first. Improve your technique, or make it the best you can, and
the benefit to you is better dances with better partners.
So do it for selfish reasons if you must.

I've been obsessed with technique since I started learning to dance tango. It is the best I can manage given the circumstances under which I dance. I would like it to be better still but am struggling to create opportunities in which to do it, given that classes often don't do the trick, unforgiveably (see above) and I spend a lot of time dancing with leaders whose technique is worse than mine (this sounds arrogant but I have no other way to defend myself) which tends to erode and undermine the efforts that I make.

Same applies. I'm near having to tape my hands now!

Some tape would certainly be useful but I don't think it's your hands I'd be applying it to.

 

[dchester]

I agree. I feel completely bored with classes because they very rarely seem to address my needs and I resent paying hard-earned money to be a dummy for the guys to practise on. (As I may have mentioned once or twice before. ) I have occasionally attended classes where time was devoted to followers' technique of the kind you mention. I don't see why classes can't be structured 50:50 to benefit both parties.

It's very frustrating because I need to move on but I am finding it hard to get opportunities to develop.

Have you considered trying to teach? It sounds like you are simply more advanced that others in your area. Possibly you could help to raise up the level of others around you. You also might be surprised that you may actually improve your own dance by teaching.

 

[jfm]

Hi Madhalia, you are not alone in where you are now. I've been at the stage of going to milongas to socialise first and dance second for about 4 years. Have you thought about practicing with a girl taking it in turns to lead and follow? Just leading very simple things that allow you to work on technique, at some women's technique classes we pair up half way thorough to work on putting what we've been doing alone into an embrace. Also women are aware of things like the right hand etc and balance so if you are swapping you can see what it feels like for the leader. I know it's a bit "blind leading the blind" but you know your mate will probably want to practice similar things to you, rather than colgadas and jumps. If you have good technique all the other stuff just happens.

I have to say that I can see where caminito is coming from, as in, although some teachers are very good, there are an awful lot who are not. I often find myself having to dance with people and realize with total horror that they are "students" of certain people. The fact of the matter is that when you are a beginner, you don't now what is good and what is bad. People want to earn some extra money and if they can find enugh poor sods who are willing to pay, they are set. There are seeral people I can think of right now, who are famously crap, but still conning people into paying £30 per hour for private lessons on how to compensate for the crap technique of the teacher. Oh, sorry I meant, how to dance.

 

[jantango]

Class Junkies

A woman I know came for her fourth or fifth trip to Buenos Aires. She began classes in 1995, and takes more of them during each visit. She calls herself a class junkie. I got her to join me one day at Lo de Celia, but she prefers the safety of private lessons rather than dealing with the cabeceo.

Another woman came for her first visit this month in BsAs. She began tango at least 15 years ago, but she still went the other day to a group class of someone who taught in her city. She told me she paid 35 pesos for the class and learned nothing. When we attended a milonga together, I observed her dancing. I noticed she didn't keep her heel tips on the floor nor did she know how to embrace her partner. She did not know after countless classes to keep her heels on the floor. I asked her to observe all the women in the milonga who all had their heels on the floor. She had been told to be "light" with her embrace. I told her there is nothing wrong with hugging her partner while dancing. No one ever demonstrated how the embrace should feel to her.

If these things aren't being taught in classes, what is the point of going to them to learn? The milonga is the best place to learn tango.

Group classes in Buenos Aires = 35 pesos for 60-90 minutes for learning steps you will never use in social dancing from teachers who never go to the milongas

Milonga in Buenos Aires = 15-20 pesos for 5-8 hours where you can learn the codes of behavior and the floor by watching experienced dancers.

 

[Mladenac]

@jantango

I appreciate your experience but I don't believe you should be so judgmental.

I believe that there are high standards on certain venues in BsAs.
I know you wrote how everybody should go to the holy city of tango.
But not everybody can go to BsAs and not so keen of doing that at their beginnings.
And besides that what about leaders and followers that are relatively tall.
Tall for leader is 190 cm, and follower about 175 cm.
I heard that the Argentinians are quite short.

There are great milongas, and teachers outside BsAs and where people actually dance nice AT.
In every tango community there are "teachers" and the only way is that they learn eventually how to dance by dancing with the real dancers.
And should be pointed at the good teachers.