Having problems with my wife dancing with other men

[JournalInTime]

parents where most moms were housewives and dad's had white-collar jobs

That's probably the most important part.

Most of the neighborhood where I grew up consisted of bartenders, janitors, mailmen, nurses, truckers, etc. . . . whatever sector you'd call that. In families, it was common for both parents to work; my friends were all latchkey kids. There were also lots of elderly people on fixed incomes, living in small houses or apartments. My dad the school teacher and my stay-at-home mom were oddballs.

There does seem to be a pattern on which industries had/have greater potential for 'inappropriate' behavior and relationships, particularly in the 'arts' which is the industry a lot of people with 'liberal' views seem to be attracted to as a career.

It's hard to say which is the chicken and which is the egg. Either success in the arts requires creativity that goes best with a progressive mindset, or progressive people are drawn to the arts because other worlds won't accept them. Regardless, the answer didn't matter in the neighborhood where I grew up! We had one honest-to-god artist for a brief time, and everybody thought he was nuts.

You might agree, people with higher educations (i.e. college degrees) typically have a vested interest in ensuring they conduct themselves accordingly to protect their 'investment' into their education and career so they don't act inappropriately (a vast majority of the time). These are generalizations

That's hard to say as well.

My own background is particle physics; I have a couple of degrees hanging on the wall. Where I grew up, there was a university professor, but he was regarded as crazily and scarily liberal. My experience was that universities skewed liberal . . . there were three big ones and several smaller ones in my hometown, and all were full of Marxists and bohemians. Conservative, Ivy League sort of stuff didn't exist.

All of which is probably at least somewhat on-topic, if you think about it. It's pretty hard to answer the thread's original question without a lot of context about what the person asking it considers "normal." I suspect that the near-blue-collar conservative neighborhood of my youth in a town full of progressive universities was very different from your white-collar conservative suburbs, and that all of the above might also be affected by religion (which played no real role in my life).

 

[Tango Newbie]

That's probably the most important part.

Most of the neighborhood where I grew up consisted of bartenders, janitors, mailmen, nurses, truckers, etc. . . . whatever sector you'd call that. In families, it was common for both parents to work; my friends were all latchkey kids. There were also lots of elderly people on fixed incomes, living in small houses or apartments. My dad the school teacher and my stay-at-home mom were oddballs.

It's hard to say which is the chicken and which is the egg. Either success in the arts requires creativity that goes best with a progressive mindset, or progressive people are drawn to the arts because other worlds won't accept them. Regardless, the answer didn't matter in the neighborhood where I grew up! We had one honest-to-god artist for a brief time, and everybody thought he was nuts.

That's hard to say as well.

My own background is particle physics; I have a couple of degrees hanging on the wall. Where I grew up, there was a university professor, but he was regarded as crazily and scarily liberal. My experience was that universities skewed liberal . . . there were three big ones and several smaller ones in my hometown, and all were full of Marxists and bohemians. Conservative, Ivy League sort of stuff didn't exist.

All of which is probably at least somewhat on-topic, if you think about it. It's pretty hard to answer the thread's original question without a lot of context about what the person asking it considers "normal." I suspect that the near-blue-collar conservative neighborhood of my youth in a town full of progressive universities was very different from your white-collar conservative suburbs, and that all of the above might also be affected by religion (which played no real role in my life).

Great points and dialog, all of which lends itself to deeper discussion on the original topic of acceptability of a spouse dancing with another person in the intimate CE for (long) periods of time.

While I grew up in the "conservative" environment I mentioned, and you in what appears to be almost a "polar opposite", I am making the assumption the original poster probably came from a traditional (conservative) environment where there were clear lines drawn on what is considered acceptable and what is not.

For a good portion of my life I was a lot like the original poster; not keen on my spouse (or loved one) doing 'slow-dances' with someone else, especially for long periods of time as is done in the CE (for a tanda), and they felt the same way. However, I have 'evolved' and accept things now that I didn't in the past (to a large degree). I must say, I have been giving this topic more thought, and still believe there needs to be things in a relationship that need to be 'sacred' and off-limits. People can take that many ways, with 'intimacy' in any form being one of them. While it doesn't seem to be an issue with most devoted couples in tango (including mine), tango can go up to, and approach what I consider the boundary of what is 'sacred' in most cases. For some, I'm sure the idea of their loved-one pressed against another person (even a stranger) chest-to-chest being one of them, with thighs, legs, and other body parts brushing-up and against a dance partner being other considerations.

I do know by the skill level of my life partner that she has experienced some pretty intense "connections" throughout the years. I also know that her former husband, and non-dancing BF's were not supportive of tango, so she was primarily involved as a single person most of the time. That said, I can tell she has down-played the intimacy part of tango, but also puts 'feelers' out when I go off to a class without her, particularly at a studio known for teaching beginners in the CE. In fact, my GF usually asks 'who' I danced with and wants some of the 'details' on that.

 

[Gssh]

I love this image!

Well, for me as a pre-teen and my aunt being the fierce matriarch of her generation (she was the oldest, and my father the 4th - that should give you some appreciation of the dynamics) it was utterly mortifying. If we wanted to put things on the conservative scale my grandfather was fiercely (1) - upper management at a factory, and a country club membership. He was more a pre-war conservative than a post-war conservative - so all daughters learned social dance, and came out to society at a ball at the club, and my father was a more or less willing practice partner when they prepared for that. Interestingly enough for this discussion my father vastly preferred dancing with any of his sisters over dancing with my mother - he claimed that she was too stubborn to let him lead.

 

[Reuven Thetanguero]

Hey everybody. This is a difficult subject for me but I’m turning to you as dancers in order to get advise.
I’m happily married since a decade and me and my wife truly trust each other. We have never had any jealousy or situations where we doubt the loyalty to each other. We are very open with each other and interacting the opposite sex in many situations without any problem....

Until recently. I love to dance but more improvised on clubs or at home. My wife is taking tango classes and I’m having difficulties with it. I don’t like that she is being close physically to other men. First she wanted to dance Kizomba and Bachata but I got crazy about it since it’s a very sexual dance. Now she wants to dance tango as a compromise but I think it’s a very sensual and intimate dance.
I don’t know how to handle this in a constructive way. Many probably thinks that I’m jealous but that’s not the problem. I only share the intimacy with her and don’t want to share it with anybody else. I’m upset that she doesn’t think the same way back. Now I’m having difficulties being intimate with her because I’m getting a bit disgusted about her being with other men in these situations.

After my divorce, many years ago, I dated a woman for a couple of years who actually got me into dancing. We had great fun dancing, but I felt very uncomfortable with her dancing with other men (even ballroom dancing). I am not an insecure man by nature but I couldn’t deal well with that issue.

Why? She was divorced too, and while being married cheated on her husband with a family friend for years, which led to their divorce.

In other words, I didn’t trust her. In my mind, she was a cheater and any interaction of her with other men made me uncomfortable.

A few years later I met a woman to whom I am married now for over 20 years. My wife was the one who actually got me into Argentine Tango.

Needless to say, Tango is more intimate than ballroom dancing, yet I have zero issues with her dancing in a close embrace with other men. Why? She never gave me any reason to question her character or loyalty.

So what’s my point? One’s insecurity may lead to jealousy. Character flaws of your spouse could also be a major contributor to feeling jealous.

Something to ponder about

 

[Tango Newbie]

A few years later I met a woman to whom I am married now for over 20 years. My wife was the one who actually got me into Argentine Tango.

Needless to say, Tango is more intimate than ballroom dancing, yet I have zero issues with her dancing in a close embrace with other men. Why? She never gave me any reason to question her character or loyalty.

Thanks for sharing. I met my girlfriend last year, and when we stated dating she told me (back then) that she has been dancing tango for over 20 years, but hasn't been dancing since the pandemic started. So, to make her happy, I just started tango lessons earlier this year and I'm getting pretty good for a beginner.

I 'zero' trust issues with my GF, none, and she's totally smitten, and as loyal as they come. And now that we're dancing together as a couple, she's is extremely happy about it, and excited I came into her life, since her ex-husband and boyfriends before me were against her dancing tango for the very reasons you described; tango is intimate.

Right now, while I dance with other students, and with the exception of a couple ladies she knows, I only dance with my GF in the practalongas and milongas, while she has danced with the husband of a married couple she knows, and the instructor (husband of the married couple who are our instructors) and I sit those out.

I am not insecure or a jealous man whatsoever. What I am is, someone who has 'traditional' values that come from my middle-class upbringing in the suburbs of a major city, with conservative parents. I'm not proud of the fact that I've been married 3 times (2 long, the last very short). The first two cheated on me and the last was a sham marriage (to give her a baby). I have since 'healed' from those and have now moved on to a healthy relationship with my GF.

This can be interpreted many ways, but I still believe there are certain things between a couple that needs to be 'sacred' with intimacy and intimate feelings being the main ones.

We can't ignore the fact that a majority of AT dancers are single, many of whom presumably have relationship challenges or no other 'life' outside of work and/or tango. I've read in the discussions here about a happily married leader who "loves dancing in the CE and intimately with other women". I get it, tango allows people to come together and share feelings through dance. In my book, a "happily married" guy who "loves dancing with other women and having intimate moments with them" is someone who likes the security of marriage, but likes to go to the 'edge of singledom' which makes me wonder what their definition of "happily married" is, and whether there's anything 'sacred' or off-limits?

 

[TTanguero]

The first two cheated on me

This right here is your issue; not tango.

 

[Tango Newbie]

This right here is your issue; not tango.

I knew if I mentioned that, it would be used to make a point. Again, I don't have any trust issues with my GF whatsoever, and know she will never cheat on me, nor I with her. The only 'issue' I have is understanding what is 'sacred' and 'off-limits' in tango when involved in a relationship.

One thing I am sure of is ALL the women I have been with before my GF would NOT be happy if I was dancing intimately in the CE, chest-to-chest with another woman for long periods of time (i.e. tanda length), eyes closed, their arm wrapped around the back of my neck, snuggled up to me. And even worse, if a follower was doing leg-wraps, and other embellishments that have our thighs rubbing and our groins in close proximity to one another, those other women in my life would be livid, especially my Hispanic ex-wife.

Years ago when I was with my first wife, we attended a black-tie corporate function with my fellow co-workers and their spouses during the holidays. One of my female colleagues wanted to dance with me for one of the songs being played, which I did. It was a 'slow dance' and my wife was extremely upset about it afterwards.

Quite frankly I'm having a good time learning and dancing tango. And while I'm really focused on, and enjoying dancing with my GF, I'm also looking forward to dancing with a few followers in a non-intimate way at some point to be cordial, accommodating, and friendly.

But truthfully, if I only dance with my GF I'd be fine with that, since I don't need any drama. Even though my GF has danced for many years, she knows how tango works, and even she said that once I get good enough all the women will want to dance with me because I'm not like the other men (and I'm beginning to see it when I attend the practalogas and milongas with her). I do know my GF has been encouraging me to dance with other women so I get to experience it, and learn more dancing with women of a different size and skill level.

But my gut instinct tells me she might be curious to see how I and another woman 'connect' on the dance floor, and whether I enjoyed it, presumably to also do a comparison. Why do I think this? Because I've gone to classes without her at another studio where they teach CE even to beginners, and afterwards she inquires how those classes went, who I danced with, and more details about them. And I told her the truth about one experience that included a situation where one woman who I danced with and how she wanted to start going to tango with me. My GF's response to that was; "see, the women are already coming onto you..." And followed up with; "but you're not ready for CE yet..."

The following weekend, my GF and I went to our usual int/adv class together, then the practalonga afterwards, and we danced the CE together for most of our tandas. It doesn't help that I have a great posture (frame), dance better than a 'raw' beginner, am clean-cut, fit, dress fashionably, and know how to 'hug' very well, so she may be right about the 'other' women.

 

[Rabbit]

One thing I am sure of is ALL the women I have been with before my GF would NOT be happy if I was dancing intimately in the CE, chest-to-chest with another woman for long periods of time (i.e. tanda length), eyes closed, their arm wrapped around the back of my neck, snuggled up to me. And even worse, if a follower was doing leg-wraps, and other embellishments that have our thighs rubbing and our groins in close proximity to one another, those other women in my life would be livid, especially my Hispanic ex-wife.

And that would be hypocritical, since they were the ones who were actually cheating.

 

[JournalInTime]

But truthfully, if I only dance with my GF I'd be fine with that,

I won't be the only one to point this out: That's a phase that all coupled tango dancers go through. You'll say, "I'll be fine if I only dance with my SO." You'll believe it, too . . . for a while. I've yet to meet the dancer who was still saying it a few years later.

. . . well, there are the exceptions that I call "choreo couples": People who can only dance with each other, because rather than lead/follow completely improvised steps, they dance patterns by rote – usually ones they learned in a class together. That's fine if it's what you want, but you need to be aware that it provokes at best smirks and at worst frowns, and isn't the ideal way to become accepted in the tango community.

This isn't the same as couples that set aside some (but not all) milongas as "date nights." That's fine, too, and fairly widely done. I do it when I've been going out alone a lot and my SO finally gets to go out with me. I wouldn't do the "choreo couple" thing if my life depended on it.

 

[Tango Newbie]

And that would be hypocritical, since they were the ones who were actually cheating.

Yes, two of my ex's were definitely unfaithful hypocrites that's for sure.

 

[Tango Newbie]

I won't be the only one to point this out: That's a phase that all coupled tango dancers go through. You'll say, "I'll be fine if I only dance with my SO." You'll believe it, too . . . for a while. I've yet to meet the dancer who was still saying it a few years later.

I suppose you're right, but again, my goal is to dance a vast majority of tandas with my GF. Even she said she's happy she finally has a dance partner (me), and that people will see us coming in together and leaving together. Obviously that doesn't necessarily mean will be exclusive, but conversely her goal is for us to become good dancers (and partners) together.

From what I'm seeing, we have been accepted into the fold of our 'home' studio / community, especially since I bring my young son to practalongas every so often, and he helps set up tables and chairs while we're downstairs at the int/adv class beforehand.

 

[opendoor]

To be honest, I am not entirely happy with your condition, Newbie. My advice is always clear: life partnerships and dance partnerships are two very different areas that should only slightly overlap. I've been with it for a while, I've seen a lot of couples break up or find each other. And I was also pretty wild in my tango youth. Sorry if I speak so openly, but I think you dance way too much with your girlfriend. The optimal state is when each of you two had an own dance partner. I have learned from experience. I dance with my girlfriend at home, at the beginning of a milonga and at the end. But otherwise we go our own ways in tango.

 

[Brummbaer]

I won't be the only one to point this out: That's a phase that all coupled tango dancers go through. You'll say, "I'll be fine if I only dance with my SO." You'll believe it, too . . . for a while. I've yet to meet the dancer who was still saying it a few years later.

Absolutely. My wife and I have always done dance classes together (exception for leader/follower techniques) , but also always danced with others. I guess, thankfully, that's counter to any concept of 'ownership' or more PC synonym. We're in a relationship, but we're each capable of our own lives within that. More that we've always been involved in dancing.

. . . well, there are the exceptions that I call "choreo couples": People who can only dance with each other, because rather than lead/follow completely improvised steps, they dance patterns by rote – usually ones they learned in a class together.

The only exception was a brief spell in ballroom before discovering AT. I'd blame it on not teaching technique and leading but a choreography. AT gave us a different [positive] perspective on ballroom, but we wouldn't go back. I've also seen that when some couple with ballroom AT background have appeared at a social AT milonga. They can't dance with anyone else. (But that's just a limited sample. I'm sure the ballroom people would disagree.)

my goal is to dance a vast majority of tandas with my GF.

Sigh! My pandemic concern is actually being able to lead someone else having practiced so much together. For sure, there was sometimes 'our dance' - something where we'd learnt and practiced something together. Nevertheless it's only through practice with others that you learn why something isn't working - and consequently dance better together.

The only 'issue' I have is understanding what is 'sacred' and 'off-limits' in tango when involved in a relationship.

It's not just tango. It's other's perception, but the least concern for most participants. I might have had more concerns when younger if my wife had been a ballet dancer. If you've got a sound relationship then it's anything which damages that relationship in any setting. And that can be the golf-widow or the work-widow. It's the opportunity and taking advantage of that opportunity wherever.

 

[Gssh]

. . . well, there are the exceptions that I call "choreo couples": People who can only dance with each other, because rather than lead/follow completely improvised steps, they dance patterns by rote – usually ones they learned in a class together. That's fine if it's what you want, but you need to be aware that it provokes at best smirks and at worst frowns, and isn't the ideal way to become accepted in the tango community.

This isn't the same as couples that set aside some (but not all) milongas as "date nights." That's fine, too, and fairly widely done. I do it when I've been going out alone a lot and my SO finally gets to go out with me. I wouldn't do the "choreo couple" thing if my life depended on it.

To some extent all long term partnerships become a bit of a "choreo couple" - you just end up knowing each other too well, and can do things "by rote" that you couldn't do with other people. This is even true when the partnerships are more intermittent - there are followers that i meet once every few years at one festival or another, and because we have enough shared history we can do things like when one of the classic non-tangos come up in the afternoon milonga we can say "hey, this brings up memories - lets dance like it was the 90s again", and dig up our nuevo vocabulary and body structure. Now this is not exactly doing a pattern dance by rote, but it is very much based on having shared dancefloors and workshops and a time period. There are no truly improvised steps - in the end we follow some framework, and some aesthetic. Tango looks like Tango, Swing looks like Swing, Contact Improv looks like Contact Improv because despite they claim to be all improvised and not choreographed at all they only allow improvisation within a quite small frame. And that is a good thing - it would be impossible to communicate with our partners if the frame was too bit. The trick is finding the right size of the frame.

 

[opendoor]

..Years ago ..we attended a black-tie corporate function with my fellow co-workers and their spouses.. One of my female colleagues wanted to dance with me for one of the songs.. my wife was extremely upset about it afterwards..

That is quite logical. I can understand her, because your grouping was missing two important basic requirements: Dance was not the factor that unites everyone and not everyone could participate equally in the dance. You violated the principle of reciprocity. I have pointed out the difference between jealousy and envy many times in this and the other threads. Very few here have understood.