tangobro
Active Member
I disagree, but many men in the machista culture of Argentina share your feelings, if not your take on tango, hence one of the codigos in Argentina - couples sit together & dance only with each other.
Having problems with my wife dancing with other men
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JournalInTime
Forum Master
I think it's sad that it isn't taught from Day One, honestly. I had to relearn all my tango after I was finally "allowed" to dance close, and I asked myself constantly why on Earth I'd bothered to learn open if I was just going to redo it all close anyway. These days I dance close or say, "Thanks, but no, thanks." I do not dance open with anybody, for any reason.
opendoor
Forum Master
This only applies to you, because you have suddenly found yourself in another world. But this world is bigger than you think. Salsa is much more sexual than tango, even if you only hold hands. There is also physical contact with bachata, kizomba, forró. Healthy physicality (corporeality) is also practiced with impro theater, contactimpro or tantra. In my hometown there was also "tango naturale" before the pandemic. Other people no longer notice what you actually need to get slowly used to.
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Tango Newbie
Well-Known Member
The first set, with cabeceo (from what I have been able to find out).
And we're back to Tango, tangor, ergo sum. (I touch, I'm touched, so I am) - but unlikely as anything to do with the roots of the word 'tango'; just an interesting coincidence.
It was used in comparison to Descartes cogito ergo sum (I think, therefore I am) by a German philosopher in the 20th century.
It's also that the prudery of the 19th and major part of the 20th century affects our cultural environment and hence our attitudes and responses today. And that of the US is certainly different than many others.
Yeah, what happened over the years is I became culturally converted from a Northern attitude towards touch to a Southern one.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I learn and relearn that whenever I'm in the U.S. for work.
Here, we hug and kiss the cheeks of anyone we know well enough to address by their first name – and if we use first names, there's no "sir" and "ma'am" (en français, on se tutoie et on ne se vouvoie pas même le grand patron). Even at work, it isn't weird to find something good about a person's looks or outfit to offer as a compliment (e.g., "That's a great dress!"), and lunch often involves a little drink (a beer or a glass of wine). Sex on TV is 13 ans+ (roughly PG or 14+) unless graphic, while it's violence, especially with guns, that's 16 ans+ or 18 ans+; as a result, you'd never talk about firearms, but PG innuendo and flirting is acceptable outside of a courtroom or a church. Speaking of which, most people don't go to church – they're "Christmas Catholics."
Then I get to the U.S., where I have to remember to stand at an awkward physical distance, "sir" and "ma'am" people, not notice looks, drink "iced tea" with lunch, never even think about flirting, not recoil when somebody shows off their new .45 at work (!), and respect all kinds of intense Protestant values (work colleagues I can't be chummy with will nevertheless think I want to go to church with them on a Sunday). To me, that's very, very uptight and prudish. I find it suffocating.
When I get back, one of the first things I do is hug total strangers all night at a milonga.
To throw in my cultural background. I've always lived in the UK, but sort of missed out on involvement in the 60's due to family circumstances. Many school language trips to Europe during the early 60's! University, then work, but it became easier to be out of the UK for major holidays, so Europe, north and south, for as many weeks as possible. We also used to take dance-related courses in Austria and Switzerland. The company I worked for ended up under French ownership, so, given some language and cultural familiarity, I'd end up liaising regularly with colleagues in France, Germany or Nordic countries. Add to that that our children also did some university study living out of the UK, and working out of the UK in Europe and Asia - where we visited. And then, when the opportunity arose, dancing AT in other countries.
So hugs, kisses, etc, even working with female engineers in a notoriously male UK industry, don't seem that unusual, except I sometimes had to think what's the appropriate response and action in that culture and setting.
Yes, sometimes the US attitude seems odd, but its just another culture. It's more that I find similarities to my own cultural background in Europe than the US.
tangobro
Active Member
We tend to exoticize & sexualize the dances, & even some of the cultural norms of other cultures e.g. in the Argentinean ex pat community in my town hugging & kissing cheeks is done by all, including men greeting each other, but men kissing men raises some American eyebrows.
Salsa bachata & tango are danced within the cultures that they evolved in by parents with their children, teens with their grandparents or aunts & uncles. Brothers & sisters dance with each other, cousins etc.
The idea that salsa or bachata are sexual is not common within the cultures in which they evolved.
Tango is danced in an abrazo (embrace, hug). The idea that it is "sensual (and sexual for that matter)" is foreign to the people in the cultures that produced it.
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raindance
Forum Master
All of that varies a lot in the US - urban to rural, east to west, north to south, mixed cultural neighborhoods vs segregated, religious areas vs more secular, etc. I'm in the US, and the family my brother married into was much more into hugging everyone on greeting them than our family, for example. And my parents were charmed by it and started doing it too (hugging on greeting) with anyone that was a willing participant, for example. And ours was the family with a history of travel to Europe, not the in-laws.
In workplaces, what is considered friendly vs flirting has changed a lot in recent decades. The pendulum has swung more prudish after decades of execs hiring only the cutest assistants possible and requiring short skirts and outright misbehavior (not just a compliment or a smile) and whatnot.
And in Canada, what I saw in Ontario is a lot more like what you describe of the US, other than the guns, than what you describe of your part of Canada.
So, YMMV! The US is certainly not the same everywhere.
Well, and there is also the fact that we see the past though a mirror of nostalgia, and what old people claim that their youth looked like - primary documents often tend to suggest otherwise. While there are a more examples of performances than of social dance there, there are still quite a few examples -Walter Nelson has a lot of interesting stuff. When it comes to things like close embrace and the average skill level of dancers it looks quite different than what we get told.
(and there are some interesting snippets: really interesting - parts of history that you just usually don't hear about. I wonder when this stopped - at least in musicals and shows of the 50's performers dressed up as sailors were a common trope, and i never realized that there was an actual reason for this.)
How prudish the 19th century was in practice seems also somewhat questionable to me - victorian outfits are very much about butts, and the frequent admonishments about not showing legs read somewhat different when considering that womens underwear is pretty much a 1920s invention (and immediately lead to skirts getting shorter)
My personal theory is that the most prudish times were actually the 50's and 60's as WWII enormously disrupted society on all levels, and then after the war everybody wanted to return to "normal", and this normal was more a rejection of the disorder and experiences of the great depression and the war as it was a continuation of the traditions of the roaring twenties people actually grew up in. (E.g. we mentioned the suburbs - the suburbs is something the government created with new deal/GI bill money and interventions in the mortage market- the US is traditionally a country of renters where only about 10% are homeowners. (to get an idea of how much money the government puts into the mortage marktet: a average free market mortage (i.e. pre FHA) had a 50% downpayment, and a 5 year duration).
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Oof, yes, that's important to resolve. I guess we somehow managed to split that hair.
Québec considers itself a separate country in all but the UN.
But yes, I hear you.Probably a good comparison would be, say, "Puerto Rico vs. the continental U.S." That's closer to how things are there.
Mr. Moustachio
Active Member
I've never done this exercise. What happens if your walk isn't smooth?
A better version of this exercise is to have the leaders hold their hands behind their backs and have the followers hold onto the leaders' shoulders. This way, the leader can feel which foot the follower has her weight on. Also, this way the follower feels the lead. In my opinion, the contactless exercise has little value for the leader and none for the follower.
The ball/balloon drops or rolls around. It's about keeping it in position and 'held' at a level. It does allow more flexibility than locking heads together, but that's not too bad for some elements. It used to be a party game as well.
Yes, it sort of works if one-sided as well, but it's also useful to lead by 'will-power'. You can dismiss it that it's all physical, but it does show methods of communication. We did it as a group exercise with random partners. Also used it as an exercise on a course, but you have to choose an element or sequence you can both do. Feels a bit like Assassin's Tango circling each other. You can also change roles! The value is recognising cues, and realising how you provide a cue. Also doing something obvious slowly.
Yes, works for some and not for others - and many don't want head contact as well. I've done it, but not my personal preference, and I think there'd be problems selling it to many dancers nowadays.
opendoor
Forum Master
I'm a little disappointed that nobody asks what it is. That actually was meant to be a provocation. So are you already informed, Tango Newbie ?