Height difference; avoid, open embrace, or some other strategy?

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Rain Dog, all the points you made are totally valid, but I believe I did not manage to get my point through. Which was: a number of dances we get on a given night depends on many factors, most of which are utterly out of our control. So, if we set our dancing happiness on those numbers, we are doomed to have many unhappy nights.
Expectations, especially those with numbers attached to them, will ruin it for you every time.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Oh come on, that's not the same situation at all, and you know it.

You've already rejected and weeded out the unmusical and maloderous, the grippers and grabbers, the clumsy and the boring. I'm sure if you wanted to, you could lower your standards and dance a lot more. You've made your choice (and btw, I'm not saying you are wrong at all for choosing as you do), but it is a *choice*.

The problem is, if I wanted more, I would want more dancing, not more gripping and grabbing. So, no, it wouldn't quite work that way. Bottom line, I have to make do with what's available to me, just like any other person, old or new.

 

[WildE]

Idn what a Tanda is and indeed I am a novice yet not a left footed dishrag. It was a NYE studio paid dance/event..seems only the people who knew one another danced together and I as a new face and extremely tall was overlooked despite my not being a wallflower...pardon the pun. One instructor I briefly danced with twice in a group mixer seemed to loathe me the pompus, young prick. Luckily one other of their 3-5 male instructors danced with me a couple times during the evening or I would never go back to that very big, popular studio. Those other gents scored an absolute zero for marketing and presentation. If I was their boss they would undergo additional hands on training how to welcome and impress a client prospect. That studio has about a 1% chance of receiving any of my private or group lesson business.

 

[Tango Distance]

It was sad to read you left early and unhappy -- it is supposed to be fun. Random thoughts:

• It might not be about height. Indeed I imagine many would be intrigued by a tall lady.
• My "Not Touchy Feely" thread http://www.dance-forums.com/threads/not-touchy-feely.45840/ explains in great detail, short story is I still find it easier to ask people I know from class.
• I have seen several times that new faces don't get a dance -- getting 3 actually might be a good start. For the record it has taken me a year, but I'm finally doing my part. If I see a newby or someone sitting I'll ask unless I run out of Tandas to do it.
  
• I find it a sure-fire "yes" when I ask an instructor to dance -- they are competing for students.
• You might rethink taking lessons at that studio. It is a great way to break the ice with people (and in your case introduce them to the charms of a tall lady). I think it improves your odds of getting asked at Milongas.
• You'd think instructors would be the best at asking newbies, but that I have seen, one is really good at doing that, several others not so good. It's a small number of people, so I don't want to imply this is universally true.
  
• Hate to say it, but it seems the 20-something ladies get asked a lot more than the 30+ year old ladies.
• After age, more experienced ladies get asked more often.
• A Tanda is a group of songs (3 in my area). You generally dance with the same person for all 3 songs.
• Do you know about Mirada/Cabeceo? It's possible men were trying to ask you by looking and nodding but you don't know about that culture.

Huge suggestion for you: Log in here, go to the Tango Argentino forum, and then click on the "views" link. This will sort the threads into order by the number of views. There are great threads on why ladies get asked to dance, why not, how to improve your odds, etc. I'd also suggest searching on "cabeceo" and reading threads on that. There are many other great threads. I often do this, as there is so much great knowledge here about Tango culture.

Only 2 gents and 1 male instructor asked me to dance all evening NYE. Yes I am 6'4" in flats, size 14/16 and a novice dancer yet I am not an odd footed, obese ogre. Left an hour before Cinderella strike of 12 and cried all the way home. I expected more gracious invites to dance at a large, studio dance. Being avoided and having ladies all around you get dances is a very painful experience. Felt like high school all over again.

Idn what a Tanda is and indeed I am a novice yet not a left footed dishrag. It was a NYE studio paid dance/event..seems only the people who knew one another danced together and I as a new face and extremely tall was overlooked despite my not being a wallflower...pardon the pun. One instructor I briefly danced with twice in a group mixer seemed to loathe me the pompus, young prick. Luckily one other of their 3-5 male instructors danced with me a couple times during the evening or I would never go back to that very big, popular studio. Those other gents scored an absolute zero for marketing and presentation. If I was their boss they would undergo additional hands on training how to welcome and impress a client prospect. That studio has about a 1% chance of receiving any of my private or group lesson business.

 

[dchester]

Only 2 gents and 1 male instructor asked me to dance all evening NYE. Yes I am 6'4" in flats, size 14/16 and a novice dancer yet I am not an odd footed, obese ogre. Left an hour before Cinderella strike of 12 and cried all the way home. I expected more gracious invites to dance at a large, studio dance. Being avoided and having ladies all around you get dances is a very painful experience. Felt like high school all over again.

I'm sorry you had a bad evening. Life isn't fair sometimes. At special events, festivals, etc., it can be difficult for someone new to get many dances. A lot of times at these big events, people tend to search out their favorite dancers that they only see at these special events. As you found out, a new women can wait a long time between tandas, and a new guy has to get used to lots of rejections before finding someone willing to take a chance on him.

I'm not saying that's the way it should be, but unfortunately, that's the way it is sometimes.

 

[Juniper Ivy]

Only 2 gents and 1 male instructor asked me to dance all evening NYE. Yes I am 6'4" in flats, size 14/16 and a novice dancer yet I am not an odd footed, obese ogre. Left an hour before Cinderella strike of 12 and cried all the way home. I expected more gracious invites to dance at a large, studio dance. Being avoided and having ladies all around you get dances is a very painful experience. Felt like high school all over again.

I am so sorry you had such a crappy New Years Eve. If it makes you feel better all I did was stay home and watch TV. And please know every follower occasionally has terrible evenings like this. Even worse. Sometimes a person may get no dances. Zero.

But please don't give up on tango. You say you are a novice. It takes a while to get started with tango. Stick with it. Keep improving your dance skills. Work on developing friendly relationships with other dancers. Also read the threads in this forum that give advice on now to get dance invitations. Don't give up. I am sure your next milonga will be better.

(Leads take note of this. How you can make such a positive difference in someone's evening just by asking her to dance.)

 

[Juniper Ivy]

Also I have to say that there are some tall men out there who will enjoy your height. Tango is a dance that looks good with tall dancers.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

A lot of "short" leaders enjoy dancing with taller women as well.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Left an hour before Cinderella strike of 12 and cried all the way home.

I decided years ago that NYE was a bad time to go out as a single.
I don't think I ever cried, but I do remember it being very unfulfilling.
There's always another weekend / event coming up.

 

[Wolfie]

I have been having trouble establishing a solid connection with my shorter lead. His legs are significantly shorter than mine and when we try closed embrace everything feels very "off and odd". Even open embrace doesn't feel right. Tango is probably the one dance I know very little of and I have decided my biggest problem is establishing a connection, and this tends to affect me with taller leads as well. I get the points of contact and leading through the core but I have yet to have a dance where I can really feel what my lead is trying to get me to do. It has gotten to the point where I avoid dancing tango and will sometimes turn down a dance at a social if it is tango. I'm just not confident that I can do anything but walk and step on my partners feet and get in the way.
On the flip side my partner loves tango and drags me through it but I just can't do it! I can't connect and feel it and am always behind the beat. Is this mostly an issue with my lead being short or my form just being "that bad"?

 

[tangomaniac]

I have been having trouble establishing a solid connection with my shorter lead. His legs are significantly shorter than mine and when we try closed embrace everything feels very "off and odd". Even open embrace doesn't feel right. Tango is probably the one dance I know very little of and I have decided my biggest problem is establishing a connection, and this tends to affect me with taller leads as well. I get the points of contact and leading through the core but I have yet to have a dance where I can really feel what my lead is trying to get me to do. It has gotten to the point where I avoid dancing tango and will sometimes turn down a dance at a social if it is tango. I'm just not confident that I can do anything but walk and step on my partners feet and get in the way.
On the flip side my partner loves tango and drags me through it but I just can't do it! I can't connect and feel it and am always behind the beat. Is this mostly an issue with my lead being short or my form just being "that bad"?

I dance Apilado ("Stacked") style. I lean INTO my partner, not ON my partner. Because I'm slightly angled (A frame), I use my torso to lead because my upper body moves BEFORE my feet.

I see a lot of men dance flat footed so they can't give their torso to their partner. They tend to move their feet first and when the woman doesn't move, they use their arms.

This video may explain better. They are connected at the torso. There's plenty of space on the floor because the woman moves first from the lead.

 

[dchester]

I have been having trouble establishing a solid connection with my shorter lead. His legs are significantly shorter than mine and when we try closed embrace everything feels very "off and odd". Even open embrace doesn't feel right. Tango is probably the one dance I know very little of and I have decided my biggest problem is establishing a connection, and this tends to affect me with taller leads as well. I get the points of contact and leading through the core but I have yet to have a dance where I can really feel what my lead is trying to get me to do. It has gotten to the point where I avoid dancing tango and will sometimes turn down a dance at a social if it is tango. I'm just not confident that I can do anything but walk and step on my partners feet and get in the way.
On the flip side my partner loves tango and drags me through it but I just can't do it! I can't connect and feel it and am always behind the beat. Is this mostly an issue with my lead being short or my form just being "that bad"?

Usually with these things, there's blame to go around, (i.e. it's rarely 100% one and 0% the other). Without actually seeing you dance, it's hard to say what needs to be corrected, so I'll just give some general advice. When there's a big height difference, the best thing might be to simply accept that and not change your posture to try and compensate. Simply lean into him, and you connect where ever you both line up. Then adjust the arms so that it's comfortable for both.

For the comment relating to being off the beat, again I can't see what happening, but as a follower, one thing you should aspire to do (at least in the beginning), is to start you foot moving as soon as you feel his chest indicating it. (i.e. Your foot starting before his foot does, is fine. Your foot starting after his foot, is not good, and again, it could be as much the leader's fault as it is yours). However, you do want to land (change weight) together, on the beat. It takes some practice, though.

 

[JoeB]

Get creative; I dated a girl who was 5'8" and wore 6" heels to two step in. I'm 6', so I could easily lose track of a short couple behind her. Just need to turn from time to time to get a look around and map out where everybody else is. Otherwise, enjoy the view.

 

[Juniper Ivy]

I have been having trouble establishing a solid connection with my shorter lead. His legs are significantly shorter than mine and when we try closed embrace everything feels very "off and odd". Even open embrace doesn't feel right. Tango is probably the one dance I know very little of and I have decided my biggest problem is establishing a connection, and this tends to affect me with taller leads as well. I get the points of contact and leading through the core but I have yet to have a dance where I can really feel what my lead is trying to get me to do. It has gotten to the point where I avoid dancing tango and will sometimes turn down a dance at a social if it is tango. I'm just not confident that I can do anything but walk and step on my partners feet and get in the way.
On the flip side my partner loves tango and drags me through it but I just can't do it! I can't connect and feel it and am always behind the beat. Is this mostly an issue with my lead being short or my form just being "that bad"?

Hi Wolfie,
I have a few questions to try to understand your situation better.
First, I just want to be sure you're dancing Argentine tango, not ballroom tango, correct? Because these two dances are quite different from each other.
Also I am wondering what are the other dances you do that you are more comfortable following?
Also I am wondering what is the height difference between you and your partner? (take heels into account.)

You say you have problems following taller leads as well so it sounds like you have problems following tango no matter who you are dancing with? Or are there some tango leads that you can follow?

Here is my take on your situation. I came to tango after having danced ballroom and salsa first. And I have to say that tango is very different from those dances. My first 2 to 3 years dancing tango I too felt that I was merely making one mistake after another on the dance floor. So I don't know how long you have been dancing tango, but maybe you just need more time to practice and learn the dance. And more classes and/or lessons to improve your following.

Also the embrace in tango is very different from ballroom and salsa and swing and it took me a long time to be able to do it. You need to kind of push your chest/rib cage forward against your partner. I think of it as putting my heart close to his heart. I find if the height difference between me and my partner is greater than 6 inches then it is hard to do the close embrace effectively. I can still follow the open embrace / modified close embrace but it is different.

What helped me in open embrace is the concept of keeping my shoulders parallel with my partners' shoulder. Kind of like our two shoulders are two sides of a parallelogram.

I find flowing in tango is different from other dances in that it demands more precision and concentration. In ballroom dances your feet follow a basic rhythmic pattern but in tango your partner places you on the foot he wants you to be on (which may or may not be opposite of his footwork) and there are many different ways of interpreting rhythm on each song. So all of this demands a focus on following that is more intense than other dances.

So I am not sure if all of this relates to your situation or not. But it is not surprising to me that you would find following tango harder than following other dances. Keep working at it. Don't give up!

 

[Steve Pastor]

It has gotten to the point where I avoid dancing tango and will sometimes turn down a dance at a social if it is tango.

I'm wondering if we are talking about the same tango. I wouldn't expect what some of us (people who post here for instance) think of as "Argentine Tango" to be danced at a "social." Rather, places where AT (again, as we know it) is danced at practicas and milongas. Another form of tango is danced at studios that don't specialize in "Argentine Tango," although they may call it that.
The dances are significantly different.

It would help the discussion it we knew.