Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[tangoing]

Hi guys, beginner leader here. Interesting to read all these comments.

I watched the video posted on the previous page of the dancers in Tbilisi I believe it was. Can somebody tell me what 'level' these dancers are at?

I think it’s a decent mix of levels, but also beyond the beginner level, in tango, it can be tough to tell someone’s “level”. Since some people may not look that great dancing but actually feel great when you dance with them, and vice versa.
It’s more of an inward dance rather than an outwardly showy dance (although it can be done). There’s also so many nuances within the dance where you can be bad at some but good at others.
Like in this vid (and other vids of different tanda in the same channel), there’s couples doing movements I’d have trouble doing off the cuff, but they may also be zipping across the dance floor through the middle which is such an amateur mistake + lack of etiquette for everyone else.
So it’s like, they can perform this cool move, but does it fit the music or at least the rest of the story they’re telling in the dance? Is it respectful to the other couples? There’s so much nuance to tango that it can be tough to gauge someone’s level, especially if they may be dancing with strangers for the first time, which is also why people are so hesitant to dance with new people if they don’t know how good they are.

 

[lucia_l]

I wonder what you think about Horacio Godoy’s style then. He sometimes employs that slightly erratic jerky style, but he’s also regarded as one of the most knowledgeable in tango musicality (since you constantly talk about your own perception of musicality as a musician)

Do you mean this guy? I'm not seeing him as jerky.

 

[opendoor]

I wonder what you think about Horacio Godoy’s style then. He sometimes employs that slightly erratic jerky style, but he’s also regarded as one of the most knowledgeable in tango musicality..

Horacio is a special case. He started on the floor as a nuevo, or better, as a neo guy. Then he made a name for himself as a DJ. Over the decades, his dancing also changed, but not in the sense that he changed his style! Horacio is one of the rare species who align their dance style with the style of music.

.. I'm not seeing him as jerky.

Lucia, a tango dancer always has several modes, you can't jump from show mode to social mode. You even can't predict if a dancer will do a jerky moves when the music is fast or staccato, given you saw him before dancing smoothly to a lyrical piece.

 

[opendoor]

By the way, I appreciate that you ask such precise questions and get involved, lucia !

 

[TTanguero]

Is it technical dancers to whom music is secondary and the musical dancers to whom technique is secondary?

No, it's more that there are dancers to whom the music is secondary and dancers to whom the movements are secondary. Either camp could have good or poor technique.

 

[TTanguero]

And the feeling between the partners.

That's included within what I mean by the embrace.

 

[pianistamediano]

I wonder what you think about Horacio Godoy’s style then. He sometimes employs that slightly erratic jerky style, but he’s also regarded as one of the most knowledgeable in tango musicality (since you constantly talk about your own perception of musicality as a musician)

The way he dances is entirely unlike those European peacocks; it has mugre, and he actually has musicality, unlike them. Sure, he fools around a lot, but he doesn't put on airs and try to fake feeling and emotion like those dancers.

 

[lucia_l]

Lucia, a tango dancer always has several modes, you can't jump from show mode to social mode. You even can't predict if a dancer will do a jerky moves when the music is fast or staccato, given you saw him before dancing smoothly to a lyrical piece.

It is doubtless the case that all dancers of alh dance types have different modes.

However, unlike the guy in the grey pants, Horatio's right hand is not jerking back and forth constantly. His follow doesn't seem to need to work diligently to keep her own shoulder from breaking when he suddenly jolt his hand forward. And he doesn't seem to be twisting her spine around is jerky ways (as opposed to just holding and more or less moving his own.)

I think his moves look distinctively different from the guy in the grey pants. If you are aware of videos in which he jerks or stomps like the guy in the grey pants, suggest one. Then I'll be able to see that at times he is "jerky" in the bad ways. But right now, his dancing looks dramatically different from "guy in the grey pants". I'd say this shows the signs of not being a "mode"-- but rather that the guy in the grey pants "jerks" and "stomps" likely as a method of "overcontrol" of the follow. That's just how it looks. Horatio seems to be more in the "suggestion" mode.

The guy in the grey and Horacio's dancing do not resemble each other at least as far as I can tell.

 

[Rabbit]

There's a good reason why tango has lasted this long, and it's because all the feelings and emotions people back then felt and put into song are the same we feel and experience today. Heartbreak and despair remain heartbreak and despair. As long as we remain human, the human condition persists.

I think the actual reason for tango's persistence is that some of the music is compelling and memorable even if you don't understand the lyrics, and the public image of a sensual dance with cool moves.

I don't have a problem with dancing according to this public image either. I do have a problem with the robotic looking academic dancing.

 

[Rabbit]

I think it’s a decent mix of levels, but also beyond the beginner level, in tango, it can be tough to tell someone’s “level”. Since some people may not look that great dancing but actually feel great when you dance with them, and vice versa.

That's one of the reasons I don't watch

 

[lucia_l]

I'm quite impressed by this Godoy guy along with his partner.. Watching him lets me see that things we do in smooth do translate into the more beautiful looking AT. Near 0:32 when they just start, you can see him responding to the follow. When she transfers her weight, then he places his and absorbs. Only then does he move in timing with her turn. He is "the lead" -- but it's the way my smooth teacher describes where really, the lead has to also "follow" and sense what the follow does.

During the move around 0:38, you can see his left, her right hand aren't jerking back and forth. (This is one of the huge distinctions between him and "guy in grey pants") Godoy and his partner seem to have a sense of position so they both know what the axis is. (Seeming to have it means they probably do have it. ) They alternate who is the inside and outside of the circle and so give each other room to dance. Her embellishments aren't just suddenly wedged in wherever she can fit them. And the hand on his shoulder is never pulling or pushing her into turns.


They then move onto a more lively piece, but you can see that even though he accelerates (which perhaps is what some people think is "jerky") , there is what I call "gooeyness" in the acceleration. It's not a sudden stomp or "Fast-stop-fast-stop". That's why the dancing doesn't convey any sense of "jerk" that you see in "man in grey pants".

Around 1:40 you can see Godoy "absorbing" and then "returning" her motion-- something emphasized a lot in ballroom and very much in WCS.

You can see they both have a lot of agency in their own motions. He's not trying to "capture" her agency and she's not throwing her weight on him for balance and then being dragged. The timing is great-- and I think that's got to be from them both having very good sensitivity and connection.

Although slower and less lively, this reminds me of very good WCS where the lead has to absorb the follow quite often and also give her plenty of agency. You see this absorbing and returning in good Latin and Rhythm too and some smooth moves. (I think it's less visible in Standard since they are always in body contact. It still must exist-- but I don't dance Standard at all).

This sensing of each other, absorbing, returning and so on is just "all good partner dancing". It's not "a mode" or "a style". I think it's just fundamental.

The absorbing and returning separates their dancing from two people who are just doing their own thing side by side-- possibly "recognizing" but not really responding. (Everyone sees that sort of dancing too. It can be fun to watch. Certainly two individual partners who are very good can put on a great show that way. But it is different. The absorbing-returning makes it a higher level.)

Thanks Tangging for mentioning Godoy because this guy is a delight to watch!

 

[lucia_l]

I think it’s a decent mix of levels, but also beyond the beginner level, in tango, it can be tough to tell someone’s “level”. Since some people may not look that great dancing but actually feel great when you dance with them, and vice versa.

It's the same in ballroom, salsa, WCS by the way. Eventually, you can sort of see commonality in what the guys who are comfortable clear leads do. Among these things "jerking". Not over controlling-- as in "putting you in your place!!", not having their hands do "groovy" things are part of it. (Beginner and intermediate Salsa guys especially like to think they are "grooving" with their hands-- but so do some WCS guys. It can be like "arghhh!!!! How do I dig the lead out of all that!?" Or in WCS-- he threw me here, and now he wants me to improvise? How? Can't he tell I'm sort of a beginner from my getting lost the last two times??!!!! )

Some other features of good are harder to detect from the side of the floor. If both partners are very good you can tell that right away. But if one is much better and the other lesser, it can be difficult to tell if timing problems are the lead or follow. Some follows can really disguise a poor lead. I think the reverse is a little more difficult because very good leads just recognize that the follow can't do certain things and leads use their judgement and just lead simpler stuff. So the couple looks good, but never "Oh wow!!!! What MOOOOVES!"

I don't lead so I don't have practice recognizing which features indicate a follow is especially able to make the lead comfortable.

But honestly, it doesn't matter that much if the lead turns out to be not so great for you (and presumably you for them). If you get asked, you accept a dance. You give it a try. It's not like a bad dance kills small children.

 

[tangoing]

It is doubtless the case that all dancers of alh dance types have different modes.

However, unlike the guy in the grey pants, Horatio's right hand is not jerking back and forth constantly. His follow doesn't seem to need to work diligently to keep her own shoulder from breaking when he suddenly jolt his hand forward. And he doesn't seem to be twisting her spine around is jerky ways (as opposed to just holding and more or less moving his own.)

I think his moves look distinctively different from the guy in the grey pants. If you are aware of videos in which he jerks or stomps like the guy in the grey pants, suggest one. Then I'll be able to see that at times he is "jerky" in the bad ways. But right now, his dancing looks dramatically different from "guy in the grey pants". I'd say this shows the signs of not being a "mode"-- but rather that the guy in the grey pants "jerks" and "stomps" likely as a method of "overcontrol" of the follow. That's just how it looks. Horatio seems to be more in the "suggestion" mode.

The guy in the grey and Horacio's dancing do not resemble each other at least as far as I can tell.

He’s a bit jerky in this vid but it’s more selective and to the music than the random guy in grey pants (who probably doesn’t even know he’s being filmed and critiqued)

 

[lucia_l]

He’s a bit jerky in this vid but it’s more selective and to the music than the random guy in grey pants (who probably doesn’t even know he’s being filmed and critiqued)

Yeah. He had the misfortune of catching OpenDoor's eye as part of a couple who was really moving! So we ended up discussing him as an example.

Sadly, it's sort of impossible to discuss the range of AT styles, modes, levels, fashions without examples.

 

[lucia_l]

Yeah. I know it's sort of unfair this guy got picked on as the example. Grey pants had the misfortune of catching OpenDoor's eye as part of a couple who was really moving! So we ended up discussing him as an example. But we don't often see people showing examples of social tango when they are discussing musicality, style, level and so on on these AT boards. So I have to admit to being happy to see a example video of actual dancing in the wild that had what appear to be a spread of levels.

Some people do like grey pants- and he does have the feature of knowing what he wants to dance. So he's not "beginnerish". As I said: if I saw similar level of dancing at a ballroom social, I'd think he was pretty decent. But yeah-- he's not a "pro level"-- people at social dances rarely are. Sadly, it's sort of impossible to discuss the range of AT styles, modes, levels, fashions, musicality without examples.


Now to Godoy who truly is wonderful: Even in the below, he doesn't jerk his left arm "forward and back". It does sometimes go up and down in a decided fashion. If you've ever followed, it's often the "forwrard back" stuff that feels jerky and uncomfortable. (Take your two arms, hold them up. Now, slowly move your hands behind your shoulders and feel what that does to your shoulders. It's a very uncomfortable feeling.)

He's still not torquing the woman around her spine. So it's still not the same. (And of course, we can't talk about how his dancing is different from some of the social dancers without pointing out that it is different-- and that means mentioning the social dancer's technique. It may be a bit unfair to the social dancer who is, after all, not making any claims to be on the level of a dancer who appears to be actually famous-- but there you go.)

I do thin we are seeing is some lively footwork on Godoys part-- often quite light. And the body movement doesn't become "start-stop-start-stop" when he does syncopations or slows. Godoy's quality is excellent. It's not just "a different style".