Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[pianistamediano]

Yeah. I know it's sort of unfair this guy got picked on as the example. Grey pants had the misfortune of catching OpenDoor's eye as part of a couple who was really moving! So we ended up discussing him as an example. But we don't often see people showing examples of social tango when they are discussing musicality, style, level and so on on these AT boards. So I have to admit to being happy to see a example video of actual dancing in the wild that had what appear to be a spread of levels.

Some people do like grey pants- and he does have the feature of knowing what he wants to dance. So he's not "beginnerish". As I said: if I saw similar level of dancing at a ballroom social, I'd think he was pretty decent. But yeah-- he's not a "pro level"-- people at social dances rarely are. Sadly, it's sort of impossible to discuss the range of AT styles, modes, levels, fashions, musicality without examples.

Unfair? Not really — trust me when I say that this leader, and many others of his ilk, are quite highly sought after by followers in the tango marathons I frequent. Most dancers would call him "advanced". I don't know why followers enjoy the "jerky" motions, but they do apparently.

Godoy's quality is excellent. It's not just "a different style".

You've hit the nail on the head; the quality of his movement is excellent, as different from grey-pants guy as heaven is from earth.

This sensing of each other, absorbing, returning and so on is just "all good partner dancing". It's not "a mode" or "a style". I think it's just fundamental.

It's telling how this is missing in the grey pants couple. The leader is dominating throughout the tanda, and that sense of togetherness and back-and-forth is not very present.


Here's another Godoy performance I enjoy — the music is quite staccato, with abrupt stops and all. See how Godoy dances, and imagine how the grey pants guy would dance this song in comparison; exaggerated hand gestures, exaggerated movements, plenty of jerky, I expect!

 

[pianistamediano]

Another one I like!

Since we're ragging on leaders, I may as well rag on followers too. It's still unfair to compare Godoy and his partners to grey pants guy and his follower; because the vast majority of followers don't know the music well enough. That isn't to say that that's a flaw that must be dealt with promptly, because for the most part followers listen to the music through the leader. But note how:

You can see they both have a lot of agency in their own motions. He's not trying to "capture" her agency and she's not throwing her weight on him for balance and then being dragged. The timing is great-- and I think that's got to be from them both having very good sensitivity and connection.

That's an additional benefit when both dancers know and understand even the smallest nuances in the music.

One of my most memorable tandas from last year was dancing with a fellow DJ at a marathon. We both knew the songs well enough that paradoxically, we were freed from the constraints of having to listen to the song. The textures, the little flourishes in the instruments, transitions between staccato and legato phrases — all of that was already subconscious, ingrained in our bodies, so we could move our focus towards communicating, improvising off one another, creating something new and unexpected.

 

[lucia_l]

It's telling how this is missing in the grey pants couple. The leader is dominating throughout the tanda, and that sense of togetherness and back-and-forth is not very present.

It's something a lot of leads don't "get". They think a good lead is "strong". Well... yeah.... kinda sorta yes. And kinda sorta no. To be clear it has to be "strong enough". But that's not actually very strong. What it needs to do is give timing and direction. And often, the leads think about what their arms do. But if you are connected, you can feel them rising, lowering, settling in the knees, hips, body whatnot. And you can feel direction forward, back etc. It's not "the arms" or "the hand". (Ok... sometimes it's the arms. Just not as much as some leads assume.)

Mind you, I can't claim to always feel even good leads. I can't claim to be the best follow out there. But even if you do things wrong yourself or not wo well, there are things you can see in a couple and know, "That's not good partnership. It's not a 'style' choice. It's not clarity. At least one partner doesn't have agency for some reason." Sometimes you can tell the reason-- or someone better than me can.

Yeah-- I also have to admire his "Slow". Near 0:30 above you can see he moves slowly. But he's moving the whole time. It isn't place-stop. (My smooth teacher keeps nagging me about my place-stop.) You can see the body movement is pretty constant speed after 0:35.

Yes, there is an intentional stop around 0:40. That is a flourish-- and isolated. It's not the constant "push-plop-stop-push-plop-stop" stuff you see in other people. (Perhaps someone thinks they are conveying the same thing as the flourish at 0:40 when they just constantly push-plop-stop. But it's just not the same thing. To the follow, that can feel like three jerks. Of course, you do know what the lead intends. So there are worse things. But I don't find that comfortable. )

 

[lucia_l]

Another one I like!

Since we're ragging on leaders, I may as well rag on followers too.

Totally fair to rag on followers. As I think I wrote-- I can't always identify what effect followers have on the lead because I don't experience it. I also know that sometimes when I see something off I can't tell if that's the lead or the follow. (Sometimes I can.) I know I have an abundant number of flaws!

It's still unfair to compare Godoy and his partners to grey pants guy and his follower; because the vast majority of followers don't know the music well enough. That isn't to say that that's a flaw that must be dealt with promptly, because for the most part followers listen to the music through the leader. But note how:|

Of course Godoy has the advantage of also dancing with an excellent partner! And since they are the only ones on the floor, they may well have picked this song in advance. It could even be a "showcase" where they choreographed.

I don't know if it's true most followers actually listen to music through the leader. At least in ballroom, timing and direction is the leaders "job". So to some extent, you have to let him do it (even if he's bad at it.) Even if someone is wrong, you can't entirely be fighting the timing set by the lead.

That's an additional benefit when both dancers know and understand even the smallest nuances in the music.

Yes. Heck, smooth pro and I did a Viennese show case that has three spots where the music suddenly interjected a 4-4 measure. No way I could have been just lead through that "nuance" of the music. He might have caught it on the fly... but I would never, ever, ever have caught it.

One of my most memorable tandas from last year was dancing with a fellow DJ at a marathon. We both knew the songs well enough that paradoxically, we were freed from the constraints of having to listen to the song.

Yeah, in Ballroom competitions memorized routines reduce the reaction time needed to respond to a lead. Yes, the lead is supposed to exist, the follow is supposed to sense it and respond. But knowing what it's supposed to be reduces some degree of "guessing". (It also can result in non-following, which can be visible. I watch one particular male lead in ballroom competitions and constantly ask myself "Can't the judges see he's not leading at all? His pro follow just does whatever she is supposed to do?" And he sometimes beats leads who I can see at least lead-- but at the same time, I can see other things he does well. And no-- I am not in this equation. I can't watch people I'm competing against. )

It is generally the case that getting some aspects out of the way makes it possible to do more on other aspects. Pre-designed choreography helps wth some issues-- but obviously completely obliterates improvisation. Knowing the exact music in advance makes it a bit easier to improvise the dance moves. Different dance communities prioritize some things over others.

Still... some things are just "wrong". They are wrong in all dances. These might be based on anatomy, physics and so on. (Please, no holding my hands behind my ears!! Don't shove me!! That's not a "style" choice! I think I've heard follows criticized for limp noodle arms? Putting all their weight on the lead? Not moving themselves at all? All so not style choices! )

 

[Gssh]

But that's not actually very strong. What it needs to do is give timing and direction.

And it needs to have timing and direction - the leaders embrace is in my opinion as much (and maybe more) about "listening" than "speaking". If the lead happens a the perfect time it does not require any strength, and if we are smooth enough about it it is like a magic trick where the follower is amazed at what just happened, because they didn't even feel that there was "the lead for that piece of vocabulary". And the only way to find the places where we can fit in vocabulary is to listen to the follower and understand her balance and movement.

 

[opendoor]

..If the lead happens a the perfect time it does not require any strength..

But that's not how we lead. The most common technique is projection, which is not carried out at the right moment, but seconds beforehand.

 

[Miradamiranda]

Yeah. I know it's sort of unfair this guy got picked on as the example. Grey pants had the misfortune of catching OpenDoor's eye as part of a couple who was really moving! So we ended up discussing him as an example. But we don't often see people showing examples of social tango when they are discussing musicality, style, level and so on on these AT boards. So I have to admit to being happy to see an example video of actual dancing in the wild that had what appear to be a spread of levels.

I think this is worth a thread on its own. Picking random videos of social dancing and commenting likes and dislikes.

 

[Miradamiranda]

Out of curiosity, is there any north american style? Or other styles?

I don’t get this referring to European style. @pianistamediano, are you referring to performers? Teachers? Differences in social dancing? And as opposed to what?
I have danced pretty much equally in Europe and the US (but never in the UK), and 95% of my instructors have been from South America with solid training, and those who were not, also had solid credentials. Every scene has factions, but frankly, I don’t experience much difference geographically.
The only thing for my experience is that in Europe I frequently dance with people who have 30-35 years experience, but who didn’t get formal highly technical training early on, so many of them developed bad habits technically, things that subsequent waves of instructors have made sure to not let go without being addressed. The non-professional dancers I know in the US with similar experience have similar issues, I just know less of them.
When I’m at marathons etc. observing other dancers who I’m not dancing with myself, I see more of a distinction related to age groups, available floor space, and music.

So my take on things is: for those whom I term "European tango" dancers, tango is just a dance to them,

So, do you mean their philosophy about tango, style, technique…?

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Do you mean this guy? I'm not seeing him as jerky.

Yes, he is knowledgeable, but I'm not a fan of his style of dancing. It's popular in some quarters though.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I don’t get this referring to European style. @pianistamediano, are you referring to performers? Teachers? Differences in social dancing? And as opposed to what?

I don't understand the difference either. I've had great dances with women from Spain, Germany, Italy, etc., and I dance old school. They were (the good ones) all good technically, that is, good technique, but you find that in the US as well.

 

[pianistamediano]

I don’t get this referring to European style. @pianistamediano, are you referring to performers? Teachers? Differences in social dancing? And as opposed to what?

I don't mean to tar all European tango dancers with the same brush; the grey pants guy in that Tbilisi marathon video is a good example of what I mean; I see plenty of leaders like him in the marathons I attend. I think @JournalInTime calls it "marathon style".

So, do you mean their philosophy about tango, style, technique…?

More of in general, I suppose. I refer you to Oa's post; she describes it better than I could. That particular way of dancing is what seems to be in vogue (or on the rise, depending on your perspective) in the events and marathons I've been to (Los Higos in Kalamata, Sueños de Invierno in Athens, Tango Wave in Warsaw, Belgrade, etc.) so your mileage may vary, of course.

I don't understand the difference either. I've had great dances with women from Spain, Germany, Italy, etc., and I dance old school. They were (the good ones) all good technically, that is, good technique, but you find that in the US as well.

All I can say is, try going to a marathon here in Europe — not an encuentro, and try to find one where the average age isn't too high. I probably have a different perspective from most posters here, being in my 20s and usually dancing in the events where people around my age go to.

Here's a few examples I posted some time ago.

I'd like to reiterate that I still consider these tango; just that they really aren't to my liking, except maybe a bit of the second clip. To quote myself:

It's contrived, it seems artificial, like they're trying too hard. They clearly want to be different and to stand out, but in doing so they're all just converging towards the same thing, or close variants thereof.

But they're all acknowledged as great dancers, and I know at least two of those dancers.

 

[Miradamiranda]

I refer you to Oa's post; she describes it

Not knowing who she is, and without digging any deeper, it just sounds like her observations in that post are simply informed by a fluke of coincidence of who she happened to dance with. HER experience. I would not take that experience and codify styles with names based on geography. I gather what she called European was as opposed to the UK. Her experience of what both might represent to her. I can travel a couple of hours to another city and by chance dance with 3 guys who might have similar approaches or flaws or qualities. And then I can call it the style of city X.
But I think what YOUR (@pianistamediano ) observations are referring to should maybe be called something down the line of … the style of ‘flashy show-off festival dude trying to attract the attention of any cameras pointed his way” instead of European. This is an international crowd in this forum, and most non-Brits don’t distinguish between the UK and the rest of Europe. Especially confusing when we have a few other continents in the mix.
Anyhow, now I at least have an idea about what you meant. I can assure you, there are plenty of tango dancers of all styles in Europe, including plenty with an traditional Argentinian dance philosophy, whatever that might mean to whoever.

 

[pianistamediano]

I gather what she called European was as opposed to the UK. Her experience of what both might represent to her. I can travel a couple of hours to another city and by chance dance with 3 guys who might have similar approaches or flaws or qualities. And then I can call it the style of city X.

No, London in particular has many commonalities with what she calls European actually, and the rest of the UK is actually quite varied. Both her and I travel to Europe for events. It's definitely a matter of perspective; you and I don't move in quite the same circles, so we see things differently.

But I think what YOUR (@pianistamediano ) observations are referring to should maybe be called something down the line of … the style of ‘flashy show-off festival dude trying to attract the attention of any cameras pointed his way” instead of European.

I call it European insofar as I've seen this kind of dancing rise in popularity over the years in Europe, but I do agree that, given how Asia seems to be getting infected too, a better name is needed. It's a term of convenience for now.

Anyhow, now I at least have an idea about what you meant. I can assure you, there are plenty of tango dancers of all styles in Europe, including plenty with an traditional Argentinian dance philosophy, whatever that might mean to whoever.

Oh, of course — encuentros, followers I met in milongas around Europe, plenty of places where the dance style is varied. I never meant to insinuate otherwise.

 

[tangoing]

I don't mean to tar all European tango dancers with the same brush; the grey pants guy in that Tbilisi marathon video is a good example of what I mean; I see plenty of leaders like him in the marathons I attend. I think @JournalInTime calls it "marathon style".



More of in general, I suppose. I refer you to Oa's post; she describes it better than I could. That particular way of dancing is what seems to be in vogue (or on the rise, depending on your perspective) in the events and marathons I've been to (Los Higos in Kalamata, Sueños de Invierno in Athens, Tango Wave in Warsaw, Belgrade, etc.) so your mileage may vary, of course.



All I can say is, try going to a marathon here in Europe — not an encuentro, and try to find one where the average age isn't too high. I probably have a different perspective from most posters here, being in my 20s and usually dancing in the events where people around my age go to.

Here's a few examples I posted some time ago.

I'd like to reiterate that I still consider these tango; just that they really aren't to my liking, except maybe a bit of the second clip. To quote myself:



But they're all acknowledged as great dancers, and I know at least two of those dancers.

I just watched those clips you posted in that thread, and i’m wondering if all euro festivals/marathons/milongas just have a crazy amount of space?

I sorta see what you mean by that euro style, although i don’t find any of their movements/musicality “bad” and I don’t see it as them trying to be different and stand out, none of it seems really eccentric at all. Also don’t get why none of them do any right turns in any of those clips lol. I actually didn’t mind the last clip of the milonga, i think it’s harder in some sense but more forgiving in that you can repeat a bunch of moves and it’s more lighthearted and silly.

 

[opendoor]

..I call it European insofar as I've seen this kind of dancing rise in popularity over the years in Europe, but I do agree that, given how Asia seems to be getting infected too, a better name is needed..

Tango is continuing to develop, that's good news, isn't it? And of course the impulses came from Europe at the beginning of this century and I'm sure that this development will now continue in Korea, Japan and China. I repeat myself, it's not about geography, it's purely about quality. Quality of movement, quality of musicality, quality on the dance floor. Come join us, it's not too late!