Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[opendoor]

I am not really sure what he is saying. Is he saying that Europeans are more technical ?

Nope, she really gets to the point: European tango is more elaborated. I learned from Argentinian and Uruguayan teachers and I was frustrated. I started to revive when I switched to European teachers: they could analyze, they could explain with precise technical language, they had a background in body mechanics. Basically, Argentinian tango teaching was no teaching at all.

 

[opendoor]

Out of curiosity, is there any north american style? Or other styles?

In my opinion, European does not necessarily mean geographically. There are enough Argentinian tango teachers who became famous abroad and earned their money there. And it doesn't matter whether it was North America or Europe. However, Susana Miller's teaching is sometimes associated with the USA, but I don't think this view is tenable.

 

[opendoor]

I dislike the way he dances a great deal.

Me too.

 

[TTanguero]

Out of curiosity, is there any north american style? Or other styles?

I don't know – I've only ever once danced in North America (in Boston).

 

[Bailango]

She. She's saying yes, that European dancers are more technical, more about the movements, while Argentines are more about the embrace and the music, less about the movements.

Why can’t it be both? Does it have to be one or the other ?

 

[TTanguero]

Why can’t it be both? Does it have to be one or the other ?

In theory, it doesn't – but we all have an attention dollar, and need to decide how to spend it. In practice, I'd agree with Oa that it tends to split along those lines.

 

[Bailango]

Nope, she really gets to the point: European tango is more elaborated. I learned from Argentinian and Uruguayan teachers and I was frustrated. I started to revive when I switched to European teachers: they could analyze, they could explain with precise technical language, they had a background in body mechanics. Basically, Argentinian tango teaching was no teaching at all.

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Okay but that’s about teaching. Here she is discussing what she feels is difference in dancing what she calls European and Argentinian way. I would say that’s her distinction. What are your thoughts about the way she has described the two camps and their respective approach to dancing.

For later, I have more questions on the “complexities of movement and precision of steps” and why that should be in opposition to “embrace and the music”. As someone who is more about the embrace and the music with less complexity of the movements (by which I mean complicated moves) but prefer precision I can do no see it a zero sum game. I admire beauty of the movement though not in cerebral way as claimed by the author. I like the complexity resulting from combination and playing with simple movements. I have nothing against complex moves or complexity of movement due to complex moves. If done beautifully, I can admire and appreciate it though I might not dance that way.

 

[Bailango]

In theory, it doesn't – but we all have an attention dollar, and need to decide how to spend it. In practice, I'd agree with Oa that it tends to split along those lines.

I still can’t recognize how or where the line is being drawn?

Is it technical dancers to whom music is secondary and the musical dancers to whom technique is secondary?

More questions later

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I've been lamenting this death of individuality (as a consequence of over-idolisation of pros and the general increasing vapidness of people) for ages.)

Bravo to that.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Their hands alternating between being close to him and then to her. I'm definitely not a gatekeeper in AT! But that control over hand position is a good thing in other dances.

Traditionally, that hand position does not move and the arm doesn't jiggle around.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

How do they look compared to people you see at socials around you?

Most of them seem to know how to dance quite well. However, that doesn't mean I like what they are doing, especially the couple in question.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

while Argentines are more about the embrace and the music, less about the movements.

And the feeling between the partners.

 

[pianistamediano]

I still can’t recognize how or where the line is being drawn?

Is it technical dancers to whom music is secondary and the musical dancers to whom technique is secondary?

More questions later

So my take on things is: for those whom I term "European tango" dancers, tango is just a dance to them, the lyrics, traditions, culture, even the people behind the music, don't matter to them. The movement is the end-all and be-all, and the music is just a tool for them to move to.

I'm fine with dancers not learning about history and culture as long as they're passed down in some way (and there are good blogs + videos + interviews on this), but being ignorant of the lyrics is just a step too far for me. There's a good reason why tango has lasted this long, and it's because all the feelings and emotions people back then felt and put into song are the same we feel and experience today. Heartbreak and despair remain heartbreak and despair. As long as we remain human, the human condition persists.

It's hilarious, actually, since most people seem to prefer vocals over instrumentals, yet they remain ignorant. I tend to prefer instrumentals, but even I study the instrumentals I love best.

 

[lucia_l]

Traditionally, that hand position does not move and the arm doesn't jiggle around.

That's what I would figure because the need to not have the hand flailing around goes beyond tradition!

 

[tangoing]

It's polarising (grey pants guy's style). I can say that the way he dances is currently very much in vogue in Europe, at least in tango marathons, and all those affectations he does (left hand contortions, sticking his bum out in an attempt to maintain a lean, left upper arm at an almost 90 degree angle, opening and closing the embrace repeatedly, exaggeratedly dancing slowly, etc.) are sort of a marker of status, that he is one of the "in" crowd. I can guarantee you that plenty of followers will be looking at him to dance.

He's dancing way more to the rhythm than the melody, as you've noticed. Not my thing, but it's most dancers' choice because their musicality is quite basic, even if experienced. While the stomp-right-arm-jerk thing, as you've noticed, is technically interpreting the music just fine, he's exaggerating his movements for visual impact, and placing too much stress on the strong beats.

Maybe his follower enjoys it, but she's hanging on to him for dear life at some points, and it feels like they're not quite connected sometimes, given that she's struggling to catch up with him at those moments.

You'll notice that, in both cases (polka dot couple and grey pants couple), when they open up the embrace, they noticeably suffer a decrease in grace and smoothness; the transition is not that smooth either.

Here's a post on what European and Argentine tango are like from one of the best social dancers in Europe, who is herself a professional.

I still consider both to be tango; but when there is already such a massive distinction, visually and otherwise, I find it way more helpful to distinguish between the two.

I wonder what you think about Horacio Godoy’s style then. He sometimes employs that slightly erratic jerky style, but he’s also regarded as one of the most knowledgeable in tango musicality (since you constantly talk about your own perception of musicality as a musician)