Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[Miradamiranda]

The close physical contact in CE reduces the connection between the dance partners: in an open dance hold or even without any physical contact with each other, the level of attention and empathy must be much higher.

Well, I wouldn’t put it that squarely, but I do agree to a certain point. Sometimes I find the connection to a partner more intense when I’m not constantly glued to his cheek and torso. If the embrace is flexible and occasionally I see him, I might also be more aware of the intimacy of the proximity, and I have to be more in tune with picking up on subtle intentions in his lead.

One of my more experienced partners has this thing about wanting the physical connection to be solid at the arms on the closed side, but not so much the torso or cheeks. He says when you are in a really closed embrace, anyone can lead because it’s so direct. If you lead technically well with your torso, you don’t have to have actual contact. We do, however, normally slip in and out of closed embrace.

There are others of my regular favorites where I couldn’t imagine having as good a connection if it had not been fully closed with no daylight above the waist. A different kind of subtle lead.

Some people confuse connection with contact.

I tend to default to a close embrace except if body types (height differences) prevents it, or he is standing too upright to do so, or worse, slouching. Regardless of whether I’m in an open or closed embrace, I mostly have a significant lean (illusion of apilado), except if my partner is very short and lightweight. In that case I need to stay fully vertical so my weight doesn’t pull him/her off balance. Although there are exceptions. Several of my very skinny short partners have such amazing technique, I can go way off axis and I trust them.

I recently did a couple of classes where the maestro was making us work on the subtle differences between the illusion of apilado and true apilado. The muscles to activate were quite different, and for me it only worked with partners of very specific body types and with partners I trusted had been trained in it.

Okay I went off-topic from connection and shifted to the topic of types of contact and posture and types of embrace.

 

[Miradamiranda]

think there should always be connection when there is physical contact.

I disagree. See my above post that I wrote before I saw yours.

 

[tangoing]

To me flashier means something that is done to draw attraction of an outsider observer. Often done irrespective of the music, time, and place. You seem to imply execution of something that requires high level of technical proficiency as flashy.

There are a lot of subtle things a couple can do in a dance that requires high technical proficiency. To me use of that isn’t same as being flashy.

Yeah and the clips linked in that other thread didn’t seem flashy at all to me since it wouldn’t have drew any attraction to me if I was watching it at a milonga.

I guess “flashiness” is subjective to the eye of the beholder.

 

[tangoing]

I don't mind it — plenty of people sneer at my dancing, so I'm used to it. Either what they say is false, and so it doesn't bother me unless they're out to turn everyone against me, or what they say is true, in which case I can either use what they say to help me improve, or I'm satisfied with whatever they're commenting on, so I can just leave it as it is and forget about it.

Not that I don't get hurt if someone outright says my dancing is (for example) bad or that it looks horrible, of course, I'm only human. But I've learned to take comments like that in stride.

How do you know lots of people sneer at your dancing and what do they even critique about it?

 

[lucia_l]

Well, I wouldn’t put it that squarely, but I do agree to a certain point. Sometimes I find the connection to a partner more intense when I’m not constantly glued to his cheek and torso. If the embrace is flexible and occasionally I see him,

Are you glued? Yeah, if it's glued, there isn't going to be connection that can be used to communicate much. There does need to be elasticity. I guess I hadn't imagined rock solid inelastic contact which is why I assumed that if you contact, there should be connection-- because at least in smooth, you wouldn't want a rock solid inelastic contact.

How do you communicate each others motion in these cases of feeling "glued".

 

[pianistamediano]

How do you know lots of people sneer at your dancing and what do they even critique about it?

You seriously need to know more about stuff like this?

I'm not blind or deaf; I overhear things, I see the look on their faces when they think I'm focusing on dancing and not paying attention to them, my friends tell what they hear, and I can actually read body language when they're in close proximity and/or interact with me.

As for what they say, nothing comprehensive. It isn't even proper criticism; just vague adjectives.

 

[tangoing]

You seriously need to know more about stuff like this?

I'm not blind or deaf; I overhear things, I see the look on their faces when they think I'm focusing on dancing and not paying attention to them, my friends tell what they hear, and I can actually read body language when they're in close proximity and/or interact with me.

As for what they say, nothing comprehensive. It isn't even proper criticism; just vague adjectives.

Well I’m in nyc which has a reputation of being an unfriendly tango city, and even then I don’t hear much negative gossiping towards younger dancers. It’s more towards old guys who are creeps or just physically uncomfortable to dance with. So was just surprised it happens in your scene.

 

[pianistamediano]

Well I’m in nyc which has a reputation of being an unfriendly tango city, and even then I don’t hear much negative gossiping towards younger dancers. It’s more towards old guys who are creeps or just physically uncomfortable to dance with. So was just surprised it happens in your scene.

I do hear a lot more of that latter part, although way less about professionals who act that way too (people afraid of getting socially ostracised for speaking up against a well-known dancer, for good reason).

From what I hear, London, Paris, NYC seem to be grouped into the same category of cities where tango is unfriendly in general, almost even hostile towards people new to the scene. What I will say is, despite the presence of good people here, I probably would have quit tango if I weren't already an experienced dancer when I first moved to London.

It's not that much negative gossiping, really, I hope I haven't made it seem that bad! But when I see it in many followers' faces, when I overhear a brief, whispered comment, when I sit most of the time (not just because I'm very, very picky about the music) despite the fact that I dance with some very sought-after and actually great followers here, well...

I've more or less given up cabeceoing London-based followers I don't already dance with. If I even think I recognise them as being a London resident and I haven't danced with them already, I just see no point in trying to invite them. Best to focus my efforts on my friends and dancers who appreciate my dance. The occasional trip to an event in Europe helps too.

 

[Gssh]

I don’t know what you mean by why crosses and ganchos are difficult with proper technique, can you elaborate?

I think that the vast majority of crosses and ganchos we do are rote vocabulary that work because the leader sends a known/pre-arranged signal and follower executes vocabulary. We refine this, and get more subtle about it, and the pre-arranged signal is maybe close to what a technical lead would be. I have worked a lot on my cross over the years, listened to a lot of people teach it, developed and tossed a whole bunch of different approaches, and i am still unable to lead it cleanly and reliably

Experiments for the cross:
- Chaining crosses and alternating them with steps: walking in the cross system and doing two crosses or three crossess, or one cross followed by a step followed by two crosses.
-leading the dark side cross: use the same technique and lead the cross on the left side
-leading a double time cross and alternating double time crosses with crosses
-leading a cross with a different setup, like for example at the last ocho
-leading a cross from the parallel system

Some of those work reasonably well, but once you remove context cues leading it becomes really tricky, and i think the cross as a figure is at least high intermediate to advanced for both leaders and followers, and considering that the cross is part of the first figure a lot of people learn this bothers me a bit. By having vocabulary that is beyond what people can actually dance we basically tell them that tango is about ways to fake the look of a piece of vocabulary.

Experiments for gancho:
-alternating between ganchos and followers saccadas
-leading a gancho from a different setup, like for example as the last step of a moulinette
-leading a gancho/inline boleo from the back ocho without using the leaders leg as touch reference, i.e. instead of doing the gancho into the leaders space the leader collects and leads the boleo along the line the follower would follow if they continued the moulinette

Again, these work reasonably well, but considering how much technique is needed for an inline boleo down the line of dance the gancho, which is structurally a inline boleo from a back ocho into the leaders space is also not trivial vocabulary. In theory it should probably be worked on after the followers backwards saccada, but i see much more people willing to do ganchos than followers backwards saccadas.

 

[Gssh]

The close physical contact in CE reduces the connection between the dance partners: in an open dance hold or even without any physical contact with each other, the level of attention and empathy must be much higher. For example: side-by-side in Lindy hop, I adjust more to my partner than when I project my next steps in close embrace in tango!

Now i am only speaking for myself and what i think makes CE fun: CE is about the lean/counterbalancing. By being counterbalanced we can use each others feet as if they were our own, which opens up completely different geometries and vocabulary than non-counterbalanced dancing. For me the best example is the ocho cortado - a counterbalanced/CE ocho cortado is an extremely satisfying experience because of the way it plays with who and how the axis of the couple is supported and oriented. The payoff is very much in the moment the cross snaps into place and the whole structure shifts internally. When dancing non-conterbalanced the interesting part of the ocho cortado is the rebound, and how the geometry of the couple changes there - this is easy to see when watching people preferring non-counterbalanced dancing fancying up the ocho cortado: It is always about the rebound, either adding sway, or snap, or doing multiple rebounds before getting back to the line of dance with a cross.
A counterbalanced CE couple is (to me) very much like a nuevo couple that is continuously staying in the volcada framework - every step is floated. It doesn't look quite the same as nuevo because a nuevo leader keeps anchoring and supporting the couple while in a milonguero framework the structure supports both the leader and the follower, which lets the leader float, too, but as a tradeoff limits movement to be around the shared axis of the couple while a nuevo framework allows us to use the space from a bit beyond the followers axis to a bit beyond the leaders axis.

Here is an example of a nuevo dancer doing basically milonguero except that he can play in the space from the shared axis to a bit beyond his axis because he is supporting the couple and not floating himself.


(I personally think a lot of the "traditional" vocabulary is actually not all that much fun when not dancing counterbalanced)

 

[opendoor]

..By being counterbalanced we can use each others feet as if they were our own...

That is what in my part of the world is called "projecting"

which opens up completely different.. vocabulary than non-counterbalanced dancing

But projection also works without lean or counterbalance.

 

[opendoor]

..I've more or less given up cabeceoing London-based followers I don't already dance with..

So you would ask verbally?

 

[tangoing]

It's not that much negative gossiping, really, I hope I haven't made it seem that bad! But when I see it in many followers' faces, when I overhear a brief, whispered comment, when I sit most of the time (not just because I'm very, very picky about the music) despite the fact that I dance with some very sought-after and actually great followers here, well...

I've more or less given up cabeceoing London-based followers I don't already dance with. If I even think I recognise them as being a London resident and I haven't danced with them already, I just see no point in trying to invite them. Best to focus my efforts on my friends and dancers who appreciate my dance. The occasional trip to an event in Europe helps too.

Do you seem them at practicas? In nyc, practicas are more casual and for actual practicing and not like lite-milongas, so its possible to just verbally ask them to practice to sort of break the ice if you don't get the chance to even dance with them at milongas, and also ask them their thoughts on your dance. If they reject you at practicas (happened my first few years...which I find very rude), then yeah you can put them on your no dance list.

 

[tangoing]

I think that the vast majority of crosses and ganchos we do are rote vocabulary that work because the leader sends a known/pre-arranged signal and follower executes vocabulary. We refine this, and get more subtle about it, and the pre-arranged signal is maybe close to what a technical lead would be. I have worked a lot on my cross over the years, listened to a lot of people teach it, developed and tossed a whole bunch of different approaches, and i am still unable to lead it cleanly and reliably

Experiments for the cross:
- Chaining crosses and alternating them with steps: walking in the cross system and doing two crosses or three crossess, or one cross followed by a step followed by two crosses.
-leading the dark side cross: use the same technique and lead the cross on the left side
-leading a double time cross and alternating double time crosses with crosses
-leading a cross with a different setup, like for example at the last ocho
-leading a cross from the parallel system

Some of those work reasonably well, but once you remove context cues leading it becomes really tricky, and i think the cross as a figure is at least high intermediate to advanced for both leaders and followers, and considering that the cross is part of the first figure a lot of people learn this bothers me a bit. By having vocabulary that is beyond what people can actually dance we basically tell them that tango is about ways to fake the look of a piece of vocabulary.

Experiments for gancho:
-alternating between ganchos and followers saccadas
-leading a gancho from a different setup, like for example as the last step of a moulinette
-leading a gancho/inline boleo from the back ocho without using the leaders leg as touch reference, i.e. instead of doing the gancho into the leaders space the leader collects and leads the boleo along the line the follower would follow if they continued the moulinette

Again, these work reasonably well, but considering how much technique is needed for an inline boleo down the line of dance the gancho, which is structurally a inline boleo from a back ocho into the leaders space is also not trivial vocabulary. In theory it should probably be worked on after the followers backwards saccada, but i see much more people willing to do ganchos than followers backwards saccadas.

I think past the beginner stage, crosses are usually truly lead for me, I've taken classes tackling all the variations you've mentioned and done them all in milongas. The only truly hard one is dark side crosses, which I've only gotten advanced/teachers to do, and thats if I'm very intentional about it to sorta signal something is different. Another experiment is doing the usual 8 count basic cross but slowly reversing and unhooking the cross (as opposed to the follower just immediately changing weight).

Ganchos are a lot trickier, since there's so many different types, and some can basically be optional if the follower just doesn't want to do them with you. Not completely understanding your inline boleo reference to ganchos, are inline boleos just linear boleos aka just a fling of the leg straight back instead of the circular ocho path?
I do think some ganchos are more rote than truly lead, like maybe the first one everyone learns - right after a parada the follower steps over your foot. ( I pretty much never do this one either since it seems gimmicky / cant get it to fit music)
But other ones its hard to miss - like in close embrace entering a follower's side step

 

[Tango Distance]

It can be argued Tango has more connection than other dances in more ways:

• You dance 3 songs together, not just one like other dances. Connection has a time component to it.
• You need to be more in tune with your partner to not step on her foot or your foot. I found Swing to be very mistake tolerant this way. Blues dancing, with the offset/interleaved feet, is also more mistake tolerant.

AT dancers “think” they put more premium on “connection” than rest of the social dancing types. The slow tempo of the music and close embrace amplifies this “feeling” of “connection” (perhaps the physical nature of close embrace and slow tempo music makes hormones fly more easily).