Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[Tango Distance]

Maybe we should do what the illegal street racers do: Blur out faces, license plates, and street signs. We could blur out the dancer's faces. If it is a particularly bad looking dance just blur out the couple's bodies entirely.

I must say I'm a bit uncomfortable with that idea. The leader in question here didn't put himself forward for a critique, and while we might exchange views in conversation at an event, that would be a private and transient conversation, while a forum thread here is both public and permanent.

I think professionals are fair game, as the hold themselves up as examples, but not random social dancers.

 

[Rabbit]

The only truly hard one is dark side crosses,

Now that we started talking about crosses, that reminds me I was going to experiment with these to test a theory and forgot about it, thanks for inadvertently reminding me.

 

[Tango Distance]

My question is less about milonguero style per se and more about keeping the body straight, as opposed to bent-over. Does keeping the body straight make for better communication? Here is an example to illustrate.

I had a first-night-of-dance-lesson-ever partner in a beginners class. For side-to-side weight changes, she would bend at the hips, like you might do to close a door with your hands full. It was hard to read as there were two axes, that of her legs and that of her torso. I asked her to keep a straight torso -- that definitely simplified things for reading what was going on.

Generalizing to more dimensions, if I have a broomstick, I can tell what is going on with the whole broomstick. I don't need to rotate it about the yaw axis. If I have a bent broomstick, it is a bit more complicated, I need to detect yaw rotation of the broom, or feel how the forces change with time to figure out it is bent and what the lower half is doing. If the bend is a floppy joint, reading becomes very difficult.

It seems to me keeping the body straight simplifies the problem. What are the advantages of dancing bent-over? More room for the feet? More room for legs to do wraps, ganchos, and steps to the side of your partner?

Thanks for the insights!

In my tango environment, the milonguero style was always the retreat of untalented dancers who did not have enough core muscles to be able to hold a bent-over posture on their own.

 

[opendoor]

..finding ways to make the vocabulary work does not necessarily lead to better technique. One of the prime examples for this is that a lot of the signature vocabulary like e.g. the cross or the gancho are fiendishly difficult to do..

Just because you brought up the subject, I observed myself in this regard at a milonga tonight. It became clear that I hardly lead any crosses anymore. There only were two cases. Once I deliberately led a chain of three crosses in a row to the marcato of a Pugliese. The other time happened unconsciously during a vals. I only noticed from my partner's bobbing that she must have marched quickly through a cross at double speed. That's all.

 

[TTanguero]

Another experiment is doing the usual 8 count basic cross but slowly reversing and unhooking the cross (as opposed to the follower just immediately changing weight).

I agree with your comments on the cross, and have made exactly the same argument myself: teaching the classic cross as a sequence is a shortcut to faking it, but it actually makes it impossible for either party to know whether they can lead/follow it. Actually leading it takes real technique.

As part of that I'd argue that the follower shouldn't "immediately change weight" – the weight change should be led, so that you have options.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Are you glued? Yeah, if it's glued, there isn't going to be connection that can be used to communicate much. There does need to be elasticity. I guess I hadn't imagined rock solid inelastic contact which is why I assumed that if you contact, there should be connection-- because at least in smooth, you wouldn't want a rock solid inelastic contact.

How do you communicate each others motion in these cases of feeling "glued".

You're not glued. <g> Traditional tango really is a hug, a real hug not a tentative hug. The embrace should be firm and meaningful, not hesitant. It's not too hard to communicate motion by projecting or turning. Once you learn to do it, it's an amazing way to dance and an incredible feeling. Just watch a few videos of some of the old milongueros dancing at a milonga.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

From what I hear, London, Paris, NYC seem to be grouped into the same category of cities where tango is unfriendly in general, almost even hostile towards people new to the scene.

NYC gets a bad rap that way. Most dancers are pretty welcoming of new people. The cliques are the problem but fortunately they're limited in size.

 

[pianistamediano]

Do you seem them at practicas? In nyc, practicas are more casual and for actual practicing and not like lite-milongas, so its possible to just verbally ask them to practice to sort of break the ice if you don't get the chance to even dance with them at milongas, and also ask them their thoughts on your dance. If they reject you at practicas (happened my first few years...which I find very rude), then yeah you can put them on your no dance list.

There's no actual practicas in London, to the best of my knowledge, they're essentially milongas that masquerade as practicas, but you do get the occasional dancers practising something. Would be nice to experience one, it's been a while!

I don't find it rude if an (unknown) follower rejects me at practicas or milongas — it's definitely their right to do so, and I don't take it personally even though rejection hurts, and they do it in full knowledge that I will probably not invite them again. I think that's fair. What I do find rude is if they're dismissive, snap out a sharp "No", things like that that make a lack of respect clear. For the followers who've danced with me at least once and decided that they didn't enjoy it enough, that's 100% okay with me, it's not like I've never danced with someone and decided it wasn't worth dancing with them again after all.

Followers go on my no-dance list if they have a "黑臉". Hard to translate all the connotations but essentially a stern, bitter or displeased expression, lit. "black face". Maybe they're frustrated after ironing their seats, maybe they've had a bad day, but I figure that if I can make my own entertainment at the milonga when I haven't danced in hours without looking visibly vexed, they have no excuse.

Or if I've tried to cabeceo twice or thrice at the same milonga, and then once more at a different milonga. Or if I really don't think dancing with them is better than sitting down for most tandas.

I bear followers who reject me no ill-will, I just don't see the point of making their acquaintance (except by chance) or acknowledging their existence beyond a simple smile and nod in passing. Way more worth it to focus on my people and things.

 

[pianistamediano]

NYC gets a bad rap that way. Most dancers are pretty welcoming of new people. The cliques are the problem but fortunately they're limited in size.

Can't say the same for London, unfortunately! Would have quit tango if I weren't already experienced enough when I moved there. I had an okay time in Paris last time, but I was a visiting DJ, so I'll see how things go next time.

 

[Bailango]

Isn't it in reality exactly the other way around?

Not for the most dancers.

The close physical contact in CE reduces the connection between the dance partners: in an open dance hold or even without any physical contact with each other

Salsa festivals often have bachata and Kizomba rooms. A lot of bachata and Kizomba instructors poach salsa dancers.

Not only is salsa music more difficult for most dancers as beginners, technically too it is more demanding.

The most common justification by the bachata and Kizomba dancers is that there is more connection in these dances than in salsa. They feel the connection is less in salsa due to its open hold, too many patterns, and complex fast music. Salsa dancers push back saying you can attain connection in salsa too.

It is clear that a lot of bachata and Kizomba dancers feel more connected because they dance in close hold or CE.

, the level of attention and empathy must be much higher. For example: side-by-side in Lindy hop, I adjust more to my partner than when I project my next steps in close embrace in tango!

Reality is less about what you or I think or experienced. It is what most dancers feel.

I think tango is somewhere in between: I find it more exciting to see a dance partner doing sexy moves in salsa than just to feel her in tango. And swing dancing doesn't give rise to any ambitions at all.

Personally I find connection in all dances. Not always though. It depends on who you are dancing with. The percentage of good connection is about the same. Somewhere between 0% to 10%. If I were more selective, that could end up between 10% and 30% or 40%. It will also mean repeat dances.

 

[Bailango]

Well, I wouldn’t put it that squarely, but I do agree to a certain point. Sometimes I find the connection to a partner more intense when I’m not constantly glued to his cheek and torso. If the embrace is flexible and occasionally I see him, I might also be more aware of the intimacy of the proximity, and I have to be more in tune with picking up on subtle intentions in his lead.

One of my more experienced partners has this thing about wanting the physical connection to be solid at the arms on the closed side, but not so much the torso or cheeks. He says when you are in a really closed embrace, anyone can lead because it’s so direct. If you lead technically well with your torso, you don’t have to have actual contact. We do, however, normally slip in and out of closed embrace.

There are others of my regular favorites where I couldn’t imagine having as good a connection if it had not been fully closed with no daylight above the waist. A different kind of subtle lead.

Some people confuse connection with contact.

To me connection is not about a good physical contact where I am in good alignment with my partner. That is usually a minimum required for having a good dance.

So I agree with you that connection arising out of physical contact is not what dancers mean by good connection with someone.

As you know in salsa we often break to dance apart in shines. A lot of time in live sets, there are sections of the music where the band is improvising. It makes not much sense to do partnerwork and shines is a better option. On two different occasions I danced with two different partners to a 15 minutes to 20 minutes high tempo live music. 80% of time we were doing shines (for those that don’t know it is when both partners are dancing solo by themselves facing each other, also called footwork). Both those dances were super connected and I still remember them and the partners I danced with.

Some partners bring out something in you when you are shining with them or you bring it out with them, elevating each others’s dance. That’s an example of great connection sans any physical contact.

 

[Bailango]

You seriously need to know more about stuff like this?

I'm not blind or deaf; I overhear things, I see the look on their faces when they think I'm focusing on dancing and not paying attention to them, my friends tell what they hear, and I can actually read body language when they're in close proximity and/or interact with me.

As for what they say, nothing comprehensive. It isn't even proper criticism; just vague adjectives.

I am with @tangoing on this.

I don’t hear anyone say too negative thing about anyone else at milongas. And never over heard of anyone saying anything about me. As for the looks, the only ones directed at me are kind of those where you can tell she wants to dance.

Only a very few dancers get talked about behind their back. People have same opinion about those few. It is mostly related to skills or lack of combines with the personality. What I mean is not everyone with bad skills gets discussed or anyone remotely care about them.

If friends have told me what they heard, it has only been positive or compliments.

Btw me and others find NYC tango circuit to be friendlier when compared to ours

 

[pianistamediano]

I am with @tangoing on this.

I don’t hear anyone say too negative thing about anyone else at milongas. And never over heard of anyone saying anything about me. As for the looks, the only ones directed at me are kind of those where you can tell she wants to dance.

Only a very few dancers get talked about behind their back. People have same opinion about those few. It is mostly related to skills or lack of combines with the personality. What I mean is not everyone with bad skills gets discussed or anyone remotely care about them.

If friends have told me what they heard, it has only been positive or compliments.

I'm glad for you, must be nice to not experience any of that.

Btw me and others find NYC tango circuit to be friendlier when compared to ours

Oof.

 

[lucia_l]

Personally I find connection in all dances.

I do too. I'm still of the opinion that connection requires physical contact. But contact doesn't automatically cause connection. The contact has to have some degree of elasticity and give and take.

I don't find it inherently easier or harder to connect through the body or hands. I do think it might be easier for teachers to explain the connection creating push-pull contact with hands.

Not always though. It depends on who you are dancing with.

Yes. Some leads don't make good contact. And I know there are things I need to do to improve my frame so better connection can be achieved in the critical mans right hand to my left shoulder connection in rhythm. I have to "get int his hand". (Similar problems of allowing my whole frame to collapse happen in smooth.)

The percentage of good connection is about the same. Somewhere between 0% to 10%. If I were more selective, that could end up between 10% and 30% or 40%. It will also mean repeat dances.

Good connection? Great connection? No connection? My side of the equation often limits "great connection". But some guys-- no real connection. For hand attempts it's "grab/yank". But remember: I do accept dances with beginners. It can be a guys first dance after his first lesson. I'll still give it a go. So do most ballroom/social ladies.

 

[Miradamiranda]

Btw me and others find NYC tango circuit to be friendlier when compared to ours

Oh somehow I thought that was your scene.

When I started going to milongas in NY I certainly didn’t have the level I have now, yet I felt very welcomed and danced a lot, and with good dancers, to my surprise. I don’t think it necessarily was ‘fresh meat’ invitations (except in the beginning), because I was there so frequently that some regulars were surprised I wasn’t a local. (Well, in a sense I HAD been a local, before my tango days, as it was the place I had lived the longest in my life.)
I credit NYC dancers with getting me hooked. In my small home scene, I was treated as the hopeless eternal beginner, and although I got to dance with our better dancers, they never pushed me beyond the basics. Then, in NY, not knowing any tango dancers there, showing up alone, nobody had preconceived ideas about my dancing level, so they gave me a chance, they challenged me, and to my absolute thrill and delight, I was able to live up to it. Back home, the only person I felt I could dance well with was my maestro in private lessons. So then, I had something more concrete to be ambitious about. I applied myself more, and also started to explore other out-of-town events.