Miles apart embrace

#41
My teacher said "Before you can embrace others, we have to be able to embrace ourselves."

Tango brings personal issues to the surface. I had issues which HAD NOTHING to do with tango. I couldn't advance until I could deal with them.

Perhaps she will become aware of her issues and realize they are holding her back, not just in tango but in LIFE!

We're dancers, not psychiatrists. Even if some are psychiatrists, they are at classes to learn tango, not psychoanalyze.
 
#42
You are wrong. Dancing in open hold is as meaningful as dancing in close embrace. Even dancing alone is meaningful. Don't start judging, too many around already do so.
I don't think JTH is judging. Dancing in open hold isn't meaningful to HIM. It may be meaningful to others, but not him. (I feel the same way about open hold.) It's like Nuevo tango. Some like it and some don't. It's not a judgment. It's a preference.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#45
But context or atmosphere also is language in some way. And remember how poisoned the air ten years ago was. Perhaps I'm a bit old-fashioned ;)
 
#46
I don't think JTH is judging. Dancing in open hold isn't meaningful to HIM. It may be meaningful to others, but not him. (I feel the same way about open hold.) It's like Nuevo tango. Some like it and some don't. It's not a judgment. It's a preference.
That's right. My preference is close embrace. One major reason I like close vs open is that close helps me to communicate better eg easier to communicate weight transfer. I find my dancing much more effective (and enjoyable) in a close vs open.
Most of the followers in my class like close embrace as well.
 
#47
That's right. My preference is close embrace. One major reason I like close vs open is that close helps me to communicate better eg easier to communicate weight transfer. I find my dancing much more effective (and enjoyable) in a close vs open.
Most of the followers in my class like close embrace as well.
I only dance in close embrace as I can lead much better and as a unit move better on the floor. in the last 10 to 15 years I only had one lady who wanted an open embrace, claiming that she dances close embrace only with her husband. To me it was an indication that she is not a true Tanguera. We did not dance.
 
#50
A lady is entitled to dance open or close embrace, just as a man is. True Tanguera is one that makes this decision based on dancing style preference, contentment and joy derived from dancing.
A woman who interjects element of "loyalty" to her husband, tells me that she doesn't understand the embrace concept, it's advantages and disadvantages. She views close embrace as a form of sensuality with a strange man - which means she is not a true Tanguera.
True Tango does not belong in this conversation.
 
#52
I only dance in close embrace as I can lead much better and as a unit move better on the floor. in the last 10 to 15 years I only had one lady who wanted an open embrace, claiming that she dances close embrace only with her husband. To me it was an indication that she is not a true Tanguera. We did not dance.
A lady is entitled to dance open or close embrace, just as a man is. True Tanguera is one that makes this decision based on dancing style preference, contentment and joy derived from dancing.
A woman who interjects element of "loyalty" to her husband, tells me that she doesn't understand the embrace concept, it's advantages and disadvantages. She views close embrace as a form of sensuality with a strange man - which means she is not a true Tanguera.
True Tango does not belong in this conversation.
I'm not trying to stir up trouble, but sometimes I feel like the patron saint of lesser Tangoers.

To prefer close embrace and to say that is part of the definition of a true tanguera is great.

I'd encourage caution in ascribing motive(s) to a desire for open embrace, however. It is entirely possible this lady understood "the embrace concept" perfectly, but it is her husband that has trouble with her doing close embrace with others. It is also possible it is not driven by loyalty but a desire to stay away from bad men (hopefully very rare, but it does happen). She might have had creepy encounters previous to dance or in dance. Yet another possibility is some people get too much from CE and don't deal well with the rush of emotion they feel.

Quick example: My dear wife (DW) does as many close embrace (CE) tandas with as many men as she can at a Tango Milonga. She gets it and is a Tanguera. She had too many truly icky close embrace encounters in another form of dance (I've heard just our area is bad about that, it's not national, so I won't mention the name). If we do that other dance (which is now rare), she only dances it with me. Just a few bad men can ruin things.

FWIW, I've had around a dozen ladies say they wanted to do open embrace in the 3 years I've been doing Tango. For the record I've had many more than that try to pull me into close embrace when I was resistant to it. Tango Distance has come a long way, I'm doing more CE now. It's about time I posted again in my thread about it.
 
#53
It is entirely possible this lady understood "the embrace concept" perfectly, but it is her husband that has trouble with her doing close embrace with others.
A simple case - than is her husband not a "true tanguero". :cool:

FWIW, I've had around a dozen ladies say they wanted to do open embrace in the 3 years I've been doing Tango.
Simple too, if they dance in open embrace also with their husband, they are ...
 
#54
My post and yours did agree :cool: ...

Upon further reflection, I'm going to question both posts...

I have read that for traditional Tango in Buenos Aires ladies would dance in close embrace as a dating behavior. Once married they would not even dance with other men, only with their husbands, let alone doing CE for 10 minutes. Arguably, that is a form of loyalty to their husbands. Are they still true tangueras?

I get that traditional European dance etiquette (where it is rude to not dance with other ladies) is at odds with traditional Tango in this regard. I also have read that nowadays some (many? most? almost all?) married people in BA do switch partners. Also, trust me, I get it that the deepest satisfaction of Tango for many is the close embrace. It is an interesting question, though, is doing CE with others besides one's spouse a requirement to be a true tanguera or tanguero?

Finally, for the record, I get this is related to but not exactly Reuven's lament, he is saying if you are going to do Tango don't be half-***** about it with OE, do CE.
Tango Distance said:
... To prefer close embrace and to say that is part of the definition of a true tanguera is great. ...
itwillhappen said:
A simple case - than is her husband not a "true tanguero". :cool:

Simple too, if they dance in open embrace also with their husband, they are ...
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#55
..simply found that "meaningful" is a normative term, and wasn't meant as a self-statement or preference.
Think I had kind of a hunch about the abysses to come, dchester :cool:

..I have read that for traditional Tango in Buenos Aires ladies would dance in close embrace as a dating behavior. Once married they would not even dance with other men...
Be assured, at large, people in BAs behave the same than in US, I, G, or GB. Although most women in BAs would of course dance in close embrace, it is still unusual to invite these women at a traditional milonga, if they are seated in the couples area. So, its a little bit different than you put it. Every woman is free to attend a milonga as single, couple, or group. The dance style is independent of the family status, but not the cabeceo.

It is an interesting question, though, is doing CE with others besides one's spouse a requirement to be a true tanguera or tanguero?
This could be the point the discussion may slip of into normative morasses. So I would advice not to ask these questions. We already had a lot of substantial contributions to this thread.

..Reuven's lament, he is saying if you are going to do Tango don't be half-***** about it..
You should remember that I rushed to your side some month ago assuring you, that CE or OE is not a case of authenticity. I for one prefer open embrace, but nevertheless also dance in close hold. So many factors influence my embrace, with the music being the most important one. There are pieces that simply require open hold and circular stepping, whereas other require a closed embrace (For me anyway ;) ).
 
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#56
To prefer close embrace and to say that is part of the definition of a true tanguera is great.
If you reread my postings you will find that I didn't state that CE=true Tanguera. I said "A lady is entitled to dance open or close embrace, just as a man is. True Tanguera is one that makes this decision based on dancing style preference, contentment and joy derived from dancing". A lot of true Tangueras dance only in open embrace...

Tango Distance said - I have read that for traditional Tango in Buenos Aires ladies would dance in close embrace as a dating behavior. Once married they would not even dance with other men, only with their husbands, let alone doing CE for 10 minutes. Arguably, that is a form of loyalty to their husbands. Are they still true tangueras?
That is not entirely correct: married ladies, or for that matter any couples, will sit separately at their own table only if they intend to dance strictly with each other. Many married couples sit separately to be ably to dance with anyone.
Last year we visited Buenos Aires and went to numerous Milongas. I didn't see any OE except an European tourist, dancing with a lady who looked like she was lost...

I am speaking only for myself - I do not dance in open embrace. That does not mean that those that do are not true Tangueros. That only means that CE is my personal preference as I feel I can lead better and get/give better dancing experience.
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
#57
I think Reuven got it right. Act like a couple, and others will respect that you are a couple. This is pretty much how things work here in the US, also. But in Buenos Aires you have the extra "layer of protection" of the mirada / cabeceo.
Sit apart and signal that you are available to other partners. But also be sure to look around for that eye contact.

Funny story (and somewhat of a tangent) about someone not knowing the "code..."
I was ready to leave the practica last Sunday when a milonga tanda started. One woman was standing at the edge of the floor bouncing and moving to the music. I kept looking at her, and she kept looking around the room. I finally looked at some other regulars, and they were laughing at the whole thing as I said, "I guess she doesn't want to dance with me." It was SO obvious that she wanted to dance that I walked onto floor and asked her. (The floor was practically empty because so many people are "afraid of" milonga or find it too fast / too energetic.)

She was a newbie, but, as I told her, she totally had the music. She had a background in modern and contemporary dance. She was also familiar with contact improvisation, and I hope I get to explore apilado with her.
 
#58
Whew, I made this way too complicated!

Reuven, my apologies, I did extrapolate incorrectly from what you wrote. You did clearly say Tanguera was not simply OE vs. CE. The extrapolation I did was going from loyalty to husband => OE => not a tanguera. That is a different statement than CE => tanguera, my apologies again for making a bad leap of logic.
... A woman who interjects element of "loyalty" to her husband, tells me that she doesn't understand the embrace concept, it's advantages and disadvantages. She views close embrace as a form of sensuality with a strange man - which means she is not a true Tanguera. ...
... You should remember that I rushed to your side some month ago assuring you, that CE or OE is not a case of authenticity. I for one prefer open embrace, but nevertheless also dance in close hold. So many factors influence my embrace, with the music being the most important one. There are pieces that simply require open hold and circular stepping, whereas other require a closed embrace (For me anyway ;) ).
Many thanks, I do appreciate that.

... I also have read that nowadays some (many? most? almost all?) married people in BA do switch partners. ...
So I get that often married people switch partners in Buenos Aires, but my understanding is there are also some that don't. I was using that as a counterpoint to the assertion loyalty to husband => OE => not a tanguera.

The world is a big and interesting place. I find it interesting some countries have a culture of it's rude to not ask ladies to dance, others it is OK to only dance with one's spouse, and yet others where men and women would never dance together in public. An extension of that is personal space and different cultural norms on hugging vs. kissing vs. handshakes.
 

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