Miles apart embrace

ArbeeNYC said:
... Be that as it may, it strikes me as odd that someone would take a class in partner dancing, tango no less, who does not want to be touched.
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Maybe a bit odd..but I think she has some intimacy issues.. And she is using tango to get over that.
I've heard people who have had psychological mishaps in the past that has turned them off closeness, and use partner dancing as a rehabilitation tool.
She is making progress. At the beginning of class she was way way apart...now at least she is ok with a very open embrace...an embrace nonetheless... I and other leads can work with that.
I do not expect all followers to allow me, or any lead, to get into a close embrace - by far the majority do however :).. Vice versa as well..leads don't always want to tightly embrace all followers...only the young, pretty ones :)))))
 
ArbeeNYC said:
... it strikes me as odd that someone would take a class in partner dancing, tango no less, who does not want to be touched.
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Do realize, she might want to be touched -- there is a good chance this is true as she is in a Tango class, of all things. She could be lonely and is doing something about it. Conquering this could also be a step to a greater goal -- maybe she has never had a boyfriend due to the hug aversion. It could be she realized her hug aversion was holding her back in life.

It's something huggers of the world don't understand (thankfully!). Sadly, a primordial fear of being hugged can be programmed at a young age, even with a single event. Often it happens early enough the person doesn't remember what or why, they just know they don't like hugs. It can be a level of fear comparable to being held under water. Avoiding hugs can be a strategy, but many paradoxically want hugs, or want to let their loved ones enjoy hugging them.

Kudos to her for working on this, and kudos to the men patiently working with her! (BTW, you can't hug a nonhugger long enough or squeeze tight enough to "cure" them! Short and less close interactions work better!)

As I have said many times, I owe the ladies in my area big thanks. They have been very good about respecting my space, but also giving some little nudges and positive feedback. My Tango-as-hug-aversion therapy thread is here: http://www.dance-forums.com/threads/not-touchy-feely.45840/
 
With some of the people in this thread, I really have doubts, if they know what a real intimate connection - not just a physical interest or a technical adjustment - is.
(They remind me of the Bachata teacher who - in different words - told the underage beauty "you have to rub your titties on the men, or you are wrong" while every half brained monkey knew that he meant "I want you to admire and hump me!")

I know through my background some people with contact aversion exactly as you describe. Half of them I know of to be autistic. They LOVE to be hugged - if it is done with real, mental intimacy. But most have been traumatized in their childhood, which leads to the believe, that they don't like hugs. (There even is a so called therapy, which mainly is forcing physical contact unto them, until they pretend to like it, to make the therapist stop. The victims relate this to curing a lesbian by raping her!)
Some of these autistics belong to the most sensitive and caring dancers I know. And they are about the best to play the game of closeness and distance which I am sure, belongs to the skill set of a good tanguero too. (I can do that game within the close hold of a Bachata with ease.)
Why so?
Because "it is done like that!" or "you have to like hugging people!" etc never worked for them. So they had to learn to establish intimacy in their dance. Something many normal people never learned. People who allowed them to do so are lining up for them!

So keep on working JTh. May be in a year, she is a dream to be close to. And remember, it's not only about fixing her, it's about improving yourself too!
 
JTh said:
Vice versa as well..leads don't always want to tightly embrace all followers...only the young, pretty ones :)))))
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That's not the way I learned and it's not what I experience. Men (even fairly young, in their 20s) will dance with and tightly embrace older women. Some men just dance some flavor of nuevo and never embrace anyone, even the "young, pretty ones." I am of the traditionalist school, in which the dance centers on the abrazo.
 
ArbeeNYC said:
That's not the way I learned and it's not what I experience. Men (even fairly young, in their 20s) will dance with and tightly embrace older women. Some men just dance some flavor of nuevo and never embrace anyone, even the "young, pretty ones." I am of the traditionalist school, in which the dance centers on the abrazo.
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I'm joking here hence the smiley face...
We leads do dance with the older followers, and find that most of them are actually very experienced - eg dancing for 15 years..
I've actually learnt quite a bit from them..stuff that hasn't been pointed out by instructors because they have many students to teach.
 
It bothers me that anyone would suggest a woman (or a man) who prefers a distant embrace in tango classes has "major intimacy/closeness" issues. I can imagine lots more reasons for that preference.

For that matter, I'm dubious about the suggestion that a distant apart embrace decreases one's connection with a partner. As with a close embrace there are pluses and minuses to each preference. An apart embrace, among other pluses, gives me and my partner more freedom to improvise. A close embrace means, among other minuses, that I can more easily smell the onions or fish that a partner has eaten before the milonga!

Anyway, intimacy is a spiritual rather than a mechanical matter, born of our shared connection with the music, appreciation for tango, and the many personal cues every couple shares such as glances, smiles, and occasional words of appreciation. It's affected by (for instance) leaders' assessment of the likes and limitations of their followers, and their willingness to lead them in the movements they prefer such as boleos or volcadas or lifts.

(Yes, you can do lifts on a tight dance floor. Here are some examples. Obviously some of them should be avoided as they take up too much space, but some are just as compact as most other movements.)

 
larrynla said:
It bothers me that anyone would suggest a woman (or a man) who prefers a distant embrace in tango classes has "major intimacy/closeness" issues. I can imagine lots more reasons for that preference.

For that matter, I'm dubious about the suggestion that a distant apart embrace decreases one's connection with a partner. As with a close embrace there are pluses and minuses to each preference. An apart embrace, among other pluses, gives me and my partner more freedom to improvise. A close embrace means, among other minuses, that I can more easily smell the onions or fish that a partner has eaten before the milonga!

Anyway, intimacy is a spiritual rather than a mechanical matter, born of our shared connection with the music, appreciation for tango, and the many personal cues every couple shares such as glances, smiles, and occasional words of appreciation. It's affected by (for instance) leaders' assessment of the likes and limitations of their followers, and their willingness to lead them in the movements they prefer such as boleos or volcadas or lifts.

(Yes, you can do lifts on a tight dance floor. Here are some examples. Obviously some of them should be avoided as they take up too much space, but some are just as compact as most other movements.)

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That's not what I meant and the other posters didn't interpret it as you have either.
What I mean is that I am disassociating the embrace from closeness /intimacy issues - not at all saying that if one does not have these issues, then they will be naturally inclined for a close embrace.
There are many other followers who prefer an open embrace and have absolutely no intimacy issues.
 
larrynla said:
I can imagine lots more reasons for that preference.
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Religion. I saw an occasional partner of mine switching from a regular open embrace to a miles apart, arms-extended one. Even the teacher could not take her in his arms. From moderate muslim (not eating pig, things like that) she had turned into a more severe form. Hiding her hair, keeping guys at range.
 
JTh said:
...the other posters didn't interpret it as you have either.
What I mean...
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I'd suggest you not say what other posters think. They are quite able to speak for themselves.

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts. Sometimes our first comments are not as clear as we would like.
 
My teacher said "Before you can embrace others, we have to be able to embrace ourselves."

Tango brings personal issues to the surface. I had issues which HAD NOTHING to do with tango. I couldn't advance until I could deal with them.

Perhaps she will become aware of her issues and realize they are holding her back, not just in tango but in LIFE!

We're dancers, not psychiatrists. Even if some are psychiatrists, they are at classes to learn tango, not psychoanalyze.
 
opendoor said:
You are wrong. Dancing in open hold is as meaningful as dancing in close embrace. Even dancing alone is meaningful. Don't start judging, too many around already do so.
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I don't think JTH is judging. Dancing in open hold isn't meaningful to HIM. It may be meaningful to others, but not him. (I feel the same way about open hold.) It's like Nuevo tango. Some like it and some don't. It's not a judgment. It's a preference.
 
opendoor said:
Sorry tangomaniac, my English is quite bad, and school long time ago. I simply found that "meaningful" is a normative term, and wasn't meant as a self-statement or preference.
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It (meaningful) can be any of those. That's the challenge with English.
 
But context or atmosphere also is language in some way. And remember how poisoned the air ten years ago was. Perhaps I'm a bit old-fashioned ;)
 
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