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JournalInTime
Forum Master
Yes. Tango booties (similar to pictured) are now the "it" thing here, and if you were to avoid followers who wore them here, you would avoid most of the best dancers. Tall heels are increasingly being seen as less good for the body and possibly the sign of a try-hard.
And @pianistamediano . We seem to agree. Just a warning to beware of 'chancers' on any tango scene. May be locals; may be 'the Argentines'. Look at their record and established venues. Being Argentine doesn't make them a good teacher!
How? And why would a German, French, Greek, or Dutch company be any better, or worse?
Is that the special followers class on Saturday?
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Yeah, in my original post where I recommended a practice partner, I didn't intend to imply "One practice partner is best!" I used the singular because a person has to start somewhere, and in a community where followers outnumber leaders 5+ to 1, it's probably wishful thinking to imagine that person will find 2 or 3 or more. But several is better than one.
I have my girlfriend, a few regular alternates, and a list of tangueras with whom I've done workshops at local festivals and with visiting teachers. My "practice partner" is "who I'm working with right now, in this room, on this dance floor," not "the only person who knows how to follow my lead" or anything like that. But then, I'm on the leader side of the equation in a follower-heavy community of my own.
Indeed! I always counsel newcomers against that until they hit "advanced" themselves. Dancing with a more advanced dancer is helpful . . . but that means "a bit more advanced" (say, a few levels ahead in group classes, or the median social dancer at local milongas), not, "a skill gap as wide as the Pacific." I've danced with beginner, beginner-intermediate, and intermediate followers who kicked aside dancing with leaders of their level to go dance with hotshots far above their level, including touring pros, and they all ended up with vast skill deficits due to having skipped key developmental steps.
People who learn systematically follow a curve something like this:
1. Learn Fundamentals
2. Learn Advanced Concepts Entirely Reliant on Fundamentals
3. Learn Advanced Concepts Loosely Reliant on Fundamentals
People who dance with a "pro" follow a curve more like this:
1. Learn Shortcuts to Advanced Concepts and Hit a Wall
2. Unlearn Shortcuts to Get Past Wall
3. Learn Fundamentals
4. Relearn Advanced Concepts Entirely Reliant on Fundamentals the Right Way
5. Relearn Advanced Concepts Loosely Reliant on Fundamentals with Context
If one's goal is just to get to "Advanced Concepts" quickly, the second approach is easily 2-3 times faster. The trouble is that if one wants to become a well-rounded dancer who can dance with anyone other than a specific pro, it ends up being around half as fast in the long run, and step 2 in the second approach is no fun and often leads to leaving tango.
It seems that a lot of followers in follower-heavy communities latch on to the latter approach in search of a magical formula for being a "good dancer" who dances more than before, but long-term, it's an exercise in foot-shooting. Not just because it creates a technique deficit, but also socially: Leaders with similar experience do not forget the snubs, and eventually, the pro finds another pro more interesting than their protégée and the step-skipping follower is the one who gets snubbed.
opendoor
Forum Master
Brummbaer, my friend, it's not about nationality, it's all about the qualifications as a teacher and a human. I only recommend people whose qualifications I've experienced firsthand (in my arms). The staff at Tanguito are just a disincentive in this regard. Admit it, you haven't bothered to look into the site properly!
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I have to agree. I am not some macho who thinks that leaders must be men and followers must be women, or that no woman can lead as well as a man, or anything like that. In fact, my female coach leads me, and it's making me a better dancer. But I've also been dancing for 12 1/2 years as a dedicated leader. Speaking to a beginner:
1. Because women are on average shorter and lighter than men, with less upper-body development, shorter arm-to-height ratios, and (if you look past women's fashion that emphasizes the legs and actually measure) shorter leg-to-height ratios, the biomechanics of leading are different for them. I'm not going to get into all of the details here, but my coach has illustrated the difference to my partner and me: The things I do to lead are not the things she has to do to lead, and sometimes not even close. "Good female leader technique" overlaps "good male leader technique," but also has significant differences. This means that learning to follow a female leader is different from learning to follow a male leader. If the desire is to dance with male leaders (as the OP seems to), it's important to practice with male leaders at first.
2. Plenty of leaders are machos who think that leaders must be men and followers must be women, and/or – perhaps due to misinterpreting my point #1 – that no woman can lead as well as a man. They'll write off women who dance with women in a heartbeat. Non-machos who aren't terribly advanced will simply not have fun dancing with women who learned to follow women and not men, again due to what I pointed out above, and so will avoid them in the future. This is not good socially for a beginner.
I think that dancing both roles and dancing with people who dance both roles is an advanced concept best left until later.
opendoor
Forum Master
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Ultimately, the divergence of tango from its "leader = man, follower = woman" mindset is a work in progress. Such flux is best avoided by newcomers. In academic disciplines, the established is often taught to novices even as it's questioned by researchers. When I first started to study physics, for instance, much of what I was taught was well on its way to being outdated by new developments . . . something I realized when I was working on my doctorate. A firm-if-slightly-obsolete base with a deep body of knowledge is easier to teach and learn than a moving target.
One of the things that has to be nailed down is precisely what I said earlier: The biomechanics of leading and following depend heavily on height, weight, weight distribution, limb-length ratios, and a bunch of other biometrics. One can set aside the psychosocial aspects completely and still run into this wall – and it's often a hard wall. Compare how, say, Ezgi Turmuş dances with almost any woman to how Cristian Cerezo Uribe dances with almost any man: Look past the show and you'll see totally different technique at work.
One of the things that has to be nailed down is precisely what I said earlier: The biomechanics of leading and following depend heavily on height, weight, weight distribution, limb-length ratios, and a bunch of other biometrics. One can set aside the psychosocial aspects completely and still run into this wall – and it's often a hard wall. Compare how, say, Ezgi Turmuş dances with almost any woman to how Cristian Cerezo Uribe dances with almost any man: Look past the show and you'll see totally different technique at work.
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Well, I reckon the 'staff' anywhere have to defend themselves. People who've been with Tanguito have rated it well. Actually I had a look at alternatives, but I'd need to do further research beyond Michael Lavocah (who's teaching a workshop somewhere in the UK midlands soon - which is more accessible). But, it all depends what kind of tango holiday you're looking for. We'll be dancing, on holiday, in Portugal and Spain later this year, but not looking for a 'tango holiday'. Might be around El Corte later as well. However, I figure as a beginner/novice, you'd probably want something different, so in that case I might be looking for some different emphasis - maybe some specific theme like abrazo, pauses, giros, rebotes, calesitas, vals, traspie, salidas, adornos... accessible at your level, and having 'sampled' that teacher's teaching skills personally beforehand.
TTanguero
Forum Master
I'd recommend just travelling on your own (or with friends) unless you really like packaged tours. That way you can choose the milongas you want to try, and are free to set your own schedule.
You can hire a taxi dancer for many hours every day and still pay massively less than the packaged holidays by the tango schools.
Only ever done one 'package tour'. Like being stuck on a cruise. Fortunately it was great, but you're right. Don't expect them to become lifelong friends!
Probably a good idea in some locales, even if you know some of the language. You probably also need guidance on currency, and what not to do and say.
I actually follow from time to time (in practicas, and with female leads in milongas), and I do notice it is different vs a male/female (assuming similar skill) but not enough to detail why. Obviously the differentiation between female/male body plays a part and where their weight and balance rests -- but what are the biggest things you have to adjust for (I think I do it unconsciously but not sure what)?