opendoor
Forum Master
Of course we can, that was not my point. But those who have done so for decades seem not to be very deep in tango, especially not in those BsA's family subtleties.
Question to Leaders about Followers
- Thread starter TA_RA
- Start date
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Why do you assume that they haven't been active?
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Mostly but not always Argentinian--there are plenty of exceptions. We're talking about today, here. So, whether AT is considered to be "forbidden" or not may be a matter of cultural relativity. And since it is danced globally, I would assume that this factor is no longer in play as a disqualifier.
True that not all good dancers are good teachers. But that applies to the escenario dancers today as well.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I know quite a few. Leaders as well.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Depends. One of our local milongas, an old one, used to get about 100 people a night, sometimes more (it's not a very large space). Now, they're lucky to get 30. That's the post-pandemic reality.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Not sure I understand what this refers to or means. Do you think the old milongueros were NOT "deep in tango"?
WhiskeyPapa
Well-Known Member
Classification from Intermediate Lead who
Takes lots of private lessons and practices on a daily basis (but still not a good dancer by any means).
Attitude is important. Being friendly compensates for so much bad technique. It’s just a dance.
Categories:
1) Happy, joyful beginner who dances badly. I can still have fun dancing with her but after a few months if I see no improvement (meaning she’s not working but taking advantage of compassionate Leads) I stop inviting her to dance.
2) Upset, flailing, miserable beginner: not much fun at all. I try to be nice—and try to avoid further dances. She’s not ready for milonga (nor is #1)
3) Experiened follower who dances badly but thinks she’s really good. Avoid at all costs.
4) Followers I know well (we always dance at least one tanda together and sometimes compare notes)—there’s a range of skills from far better than I am to a beginner working hard but improving. The category is Known Quantity. I know what to expect and what orchestra I want to dance with her.
5) Follower out of my League. Sometimes I risk a cabeceo. Sometimes she gives me a tanda.
6) Total Unknown (maybe from out of town): am I feeling lucky? This can be amazing tandas but that is rare.
7) Follower I’ve watched on the floor and I invite because I see she can dance.
8) Followers who dance only CE and dislike any opening of the embrace. This can be interesting. I dance CE but open for different figures. Am learning to adapt my dance to provide variety even without ever opening the embrace. They sometimes lie on top of you and wait for you to do all the work.
9) professionals (I leave them alone)
10) Experienced Social dancers (5-10 years +) who continue taking lessons, are musical, fun , supportive of new dancers and as much a delight to socialise with as to dance with. They are what keeps Tango alive as much as professionals.
Takes lots of private lessons and practices on a daily basis (but still not a good dancer by any means).
Attitude is important. Being friendly compensates for so much bad technique. It’s just a dance.
Categories:
1) Happy, joyful beginner who dances badly. I can still have fun dancing with her but after a few months if I see no improvement (meaning she’s not working but taking advantage of compassionate Leads) I stop inviting her to dance.
2) Upset, flailing, miserable beginner: not much fun at all. I try to be nice—and try to avoid further dances. She’s not ready for milonga (nor is #1)
3) Experiened follower who dances badly but thinks she’s really good. Avoid at all costs.
4) Followers I know well (we always dance at least one tanda together and sometimes compare notes)—there’s a range of skills from far better than I am to a beginner working hard but improving. The category is Known Quantity. I know what to expect and what orchestra I want to dance with her.
5) Follower out of my League. Sometimes I risk a cabeceo. Sometimes she gives me a tanda.
6) Total Unknown (maybe from out of town): am I feeling lucky? This can be amazing tandas but that is rare.
7) Follower I’ve watched on the floor and I invite because I see she can dance.
8) Followers who dance only CE and dislike any opening of the embrace. This can be interesting. I dance CE but open for different figures. Am learning to adapt my dance to provide variety even without ever opening the embrace. They sometimes lie on top of you and wait for you to do all the work.
9) professionals (I leave them alone)
10) Experienced Social dancers (5-10 years +) who continue taking lessons, are musical, fun , supportive of new dancers and as much a delight to socialise with as to dance with. They are what keeps Tango alive as much as professionals.
Reuven Thetanguero
Well-Known Member
Professionals/Performers are very well-versed in their routines. Since they mainly dance with their partners, I find that their social dancing skills are often limited. Unless I know a pro follower well, I avoid them altogether.
TTanguero
Forum Master
Hehe! I recognise all of your categories, and really relate to your rating of this one. Someone who has issues, knows what they are, and is working on them ... well, that's all of us. But someone who has been dancing forever, has really poor technique, but thinks they are beyond lessons now ... I too run in the opposite direction.
Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
WP I like your list (mine would be similar). I agree a Total Unknown is definitely a gamble. I have seen cases where the person has never danced at all.
OTOH, I think it is worth inquiring if the person is a visiting tanguera. It's a pretty good filter to have someone that enjoys Tango enough to seek it out when traveling (or jump in upon moving). It's another good filter to have someone willing to take the risk of not being asked. Several visiting tangueras to my little area say they appreciate the friendliness at my local venue. At some milongas they visit, it is hard to get that first dance. These are really good data points that a tanguera has dedication to Tango!
IME, they tend to be among the better dancers, and surprisingly often among the very best for our area. Many times leads will come up to me and say things like: Wow, you have to dance with G from New York, she is fantastic! Another evidence is the visitor would often sit half the night (this occurs less often now, my local scene used to be more snobby). Once the Tango Distance would dance with her, she would then dance nonstop, even with a great excess of women at the event. I don't think I've ever hit a visitor who was not a good dancer* (caveats to come). My observations cover maybe around 50 tangueras over the years. BTW my dear wife says the visiting men are generally excellent, to the point of being better than any of our local dancers.
Caveats:
- When I was saying visitor, I meant visitors to a regular milonga. Visitors to a festival, International Celebration of Tango, free lessons, or catching visiting teachers are not the uniformly high quality I have seen of visitors to our regular milongas.
- My post refers to people visiting by themselves. Couples that visit are more hit-and-miss.
- Some of this might reflect how small my local scene is. You dance with the same person many times. At a typical milonga you could dance with every follower twice, and occasionally even three times. The novelty of a new person might make it disproportionately more fun for us here than a case where you could get a "new person" at a big milonga any time you want, just by asking.
Another thought: Unknowns are a good test of your leading skills. If followers you've led 10+ times can do a particular step, but a new person can't, maybe, just maybe, you need to learn to lead it better. Here's a thought, around 1 in 10 tandas ask an unknown (or even do a charity dance), just to test your leading skills.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Attending my regular weekly milonga, I know nothing about the not-partners, and in the rarest of cases whether or where my partners take lessons. Is it my business?
OthinkingDesign
Active Member
I am somewhat sorry for resurrecting an older thread, but I can't resist commenting on this. It was too much fun to dilute my thought process how I choose my partners for a tanda. I'll preface I care more about the MUSIC than which followers I have available to me. I like to think I don't care about age when choosing a partner either, because I'm only at a milonga to dance.
My dance partners (special situation): Priority will always go to my dance/practice partners. If they mirada or ask, then I WILL dance.
I actively try to dance with followers who have sat down a long time, or beginners about 30% of my dances at a milonga. I feel grateful to kinda followers who encouraged me to stay with Argentine Tango when I was a beginner, and try to return that energy to the community.
My dance partners (special situation): Priority will always go to my dance/practice partners. If they mirada or ask, then I WILL dance.
- Unfamiliar>Familiar: when I go to an event, I'm always looking for new faces to dance with, which is polar opposite to most other leaders. I love testing my ability to scale and adapt to an unfamiliar follower, and take pride in turning that uncertainty into something beautiful.
- Connection>musicality>vocabulary: Priority always goes to dancers who will stay with me during the dance-------------->at the opposite end are dancers who spend their time self leading and constantly decorating.
- CE Close Embrace>/=ME Mixed Embrace>OE Open Embrace: Priority is CE for romantic, soulful or rhythmic songs. ME for melodic, energetic or dynamic songs, and often Vals. OE is circumstantial, if the follower enters my frame in OE then I'll dance the entire tanda OE. Occasionally if a follower has an incompatible CE, then I'll switch to OE.
- Advanced=Intermediate>beginner: I don't have a preference for advanced or intermediate dancers, but I would prefer an advanced dancer for Biagi, Pugilese, D'Arienzo, Hugo Diaz and alternative songs. Intermediate dancers I will dance any tanda, any time. Beginners I try to grab for simpler songs, I will not ask a beginner to dance Milonga, Biagi or Pugilese with me. I am open to dancing any tanda with any level partner when asked, EXCEPT milonga with a beginner.
I actively try to dance with followers who have sat down a long time, or beginners about 30% of my dances at a milonga. I feel grateful to kinda followers who encouraged me to stay with Argentine Tango when I was a beginner, and try to return that energy to the community.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
That's definitely me. "What's playing?" is paramount, while age, appearance, weight, etc. don't influence my invitations. I'm there to dance to my favorite music. Everything else is secondary at best, irrelevant at worst. I have a certain degree of disgust for leaders who prowl for women to dance with as a substitute for a love life.
The two are one and the same for me. I seek the elusive "one body, four legs" experience. While I like the abrazo to "breathe," and elasticity is essential no matter how traditionally one dances, I don't like it when my partner suddenly flies away from me, regardless of why.
I will, but not vals. My opinion is that vals is by far the hardest of the three dances at the milonga. It isn't even a contest. Most anybody can dance to music in 4/4 time, and if you can do that, you can manage 2/4 time. Yes, there are other rhythmic modes present, but beginners can forget about those at first, and it'll still work.
However, 3/4 time is badly understood by even experienced tango dancers. At the milonga, I see people of 10, 20, and more years of experience dancing four measures of 3/4 as "three measures of four," with weird steps randomly sticking out the end. They also fail to advance and turn, and insert bizarre paradas, most often to correct for dancing in the wrong time. Beginners can't even do those things; so, I find them frustrating to dance vals with.
Same.
Unlike you, I favor friends over strangers. I can guarantee connection that way, plus I'm not guessing at who likes the orquesta, who can vals, etc. However, I make a point of inviting at least a few people who seem to be "outside" the evening, whether due to being beginners, tourists nobody knows, or simply bad at attracting invitations. I even broke my vals rule the other night, though I regret it because the follower had zero fluidity – she had fun, but I felt like I was dancing on sticky flypaper.
pianistamediano
Forum Master
I hate this the most!
Those idiots just keep dancing salsa on the spot and never let me continually advance without stopping.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
We get a lot of dancers here who never seem to have learned how to move ahead while turning, how to incorporate ganchos and other leg-play into traveling steps, etc. They walk a bit, then park in place to turn or whatever. It sort of breaks the rhythm of a nice vals.