I see similarities with some of the trolling/harassing on the internet. (Not on this forum) But that is probably not someplace we want to take this thread.
Interesting thoughts about the folk dancing in the third paragraph.
Tango as it crosses over with the relationships, seduction and sexuality
- Thread starter crazycanuck78
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Interesting thoughts about the folk dancing in the third paragraph.
WhiskeyPapa
Well-Known Member
I started from day 1 in Close Embrace, with opening for figures that require more room. In many respects, it is easier to lead in CE because of chest to chest contact. OE I see as used for more Nuevo style dancing.
The other advantage of CE is that even a bad dance can be pleasant because of a warm embrace. But that requires a cultural environment (or individuals) which is/arecomfortable with members of the opposite sex taken pleasure in close physical contact with each other, without it turning into some sort of drama of confused expectations and so on.
And that depends on the extent of that cultural environment. It might be just a couple, not necessarily in any other relationship with each other, but trust and familiarity, or some more complex relationship; it might be the group learning together; it might be the culture of that country as a whole. We tell ourselves a story about our role and participation which is acceptable within the group. Say, it's about the pleasure, or it's about easier leading, or it's tradition.The other advantage of CE is that even a bad dance can be pleasant because of a warm embrace. But that requires a cultural environment (or individuals) which is/arecomfortable with members of the opposite sex taken pleasure in close physical contact with each other, without it turning into some sort of drama of confused expectations and so on.
There's usually some buy-in to some myth about the evolution of AT. That gives us expectations when somewhere other than normal. Do they conform to the same rules as I do? In some areas yes; in others no. We can sometimes see that with things which are offensive in the US, but accepted in western Europe, and vice versa. I've seen that as asking the male for permission to dance with their female partner in some regions, but not even a consideration in some other cultures (in fact offensive to the female partner). Sometimes that cultural mismatch comes up as someone wants to dance OE, but the partner's norm is CE, with questions relating to that scenario and what's the real meaning of the dance, an unsatisfactory tanda, and even their future participation.
For background we didn't start with CE from day 1 with AT. It was more about walking and then basic moves in a 'practice hold'. CE did come along pretty quickly - a few weeks from getting into it properly.
Tango Newbie
Well-Known Member
Hello TD, thanks for the (long) post.
I’ve enjoyed reading about your journey, and all your insight. A few things I should clarify (and stress); I am NOT a jealous person, and not threatened in any way with my GF’s dancing with other people.
Even though I have been taking lessons for only about 6 months now, I am picking things up very fast, and have been to a few practicas, and the first hour of 3 milongas with fellow students that takes place after my Friday evening beginner classes. Some of the classes have been without my GF, and some with, and now she’s making the effort to come to as many classes with me as possible, including one tonight (which is rare for her due to her occupation).
During the practicas, she dances with an old acquaintance and the instructor regularly. During a recent one where the music was Tango Nuevo I couldn’t really dance to that since I am learning based on the traditional music. My GF and I danced only one song, and I suggested she go dance with someone else, but she wasn’t interested since she’s not into Tango Nuevo. So, jealousy is NOT something I deal with and I’m NOT against “Tango close” as you described it. If I was a jealous person, I wouldn't have taken the plunge to learn.
Without me asking, and on more than one occasion, my GF has told me that she doesn't feel the 'closeness' of the leaders she danced with in Tango-close, and only sees them as "just a body" to dance with so she could execute (exhibit) her skills. She has also gone on to say she's not attracted to any of the leaders. None. All this seemed a bit odd, as if she was explaining what the (future) followers might be feeling when dancing with me. She was a bit surprised when I told her the leaders most likely have a different experience than she does, that they likely 'feel' her, and that it's abnormal to 'not feel' the sensual nature of Tango.
At one of the four different studios I go to for group classes, the teacher had us beginners doing close embrace, and I felt a bit of the ‘connection’ with another student as we practiced the basic steps that I’ve mastered already. I could tell this follower was already an experienced Tango dancer and was in the beginner classes to dust-off her skills. I could also tell she was very much into the close embrace with me since she held on tightly as if her love of Tango was being rekindled. I’m not going to say things crossed over line, but let’s just say it was a special moment for both of us; me with my first 'real' Tango-close embrace, and her for reconnecting with Tango.
At the last practica (after an int/adv class I attended with my GF), and as a few of us students were walking into the ballroom upstairs, and with her several steps ahead of me, I noticed a small group of women looking up from where they were seated and they pointed in my direction. After I sat down with my GF, I secretly mentioned it to her, and she said; “the women see you as ‘fresh meat’, and you’ll see it again when we go to the next full milonga.” I understand that in many cases the women slightly outnumber the men, so of course they’re looking for a new / potential follower. Got it.
As we sat during the practica, we discussed how other dancers dance, their footwork and skills, reviewing what we covered during the class (prior to the practica), and the music. My GF also knows a lot of dancers, and has her own thoughts about them, including their relationship status outside of Tango. On numerous occasions (without me asking about it) my GF has mentioned that many of the leaders she dances with are married, as if she’s trying to convince me she has no interest in any of the single leaders. She also went on to explain the relationship status of a few of the women, and how their mates aren't there, and how some of them dress a little too provocatively, particularly one of the married followers attending the Milonga, along with other Milongas she has seen her.
Since my GF’s former husband and the other men she had a relationship with over the years were against her dancing Tango, I suspect this explains ‘why’ she keeps bringing things up and the people she dances with (or used to dance with). I am NOT threatened by anyone in the Tango scene, nor am I worried about infidelity. What I do understand, is there doesn’t seem to be any sort of inappropriate behaviors going on with the Tango crowd at the studios I’ve been to thus far. But then again I'm not looking either.
Tonight, I will be going to my usual Friday night group class, but this time my GF suggested we also attend the entire Milonga afterwards. We’re also planning on going to another Milonga tomorrow night (Saturday) at a different studio where she knows more people. This time a couple of her girlfriends will be joining us, so most likely I will dance with them too. We may also go to the int/adv class and practica on Sunday at my usual studio. So, with only 6 months of lessons, etc., I’m being ‘thrown-to-the-wolves’ and tested this weekend. But I will also be going with the understanding my GF will most likely be dancing with countless other leaders, which I’m completely ‘okay’ with (and will encourage).
One thing I do know is, when they see me and before they know my 'beginner' skill level, the followers will be checking me out since I’m not like the many leaders I’ve seen on a regular basis at the practicas and Milongas. Without sounding full of myself, I’m a former Marine, in great shape, sharp dresser, clean-shaven, full head of hair, told I am attractive, and thanks to good genetics have a youthful appearance. Seasoned dancers, and even a well-known DJ, have complimented me on my stance (posture) and form, probably due to my military background. My main focus at this point will be on ‘walking’ correctly, not stepping on any toes, and executing the steps I’ve learned thus far smoothly enough so I don’t make a fool of myself. If I manage to get the courage to successfully execute a cabeceo, and a follower wants a close embrace, I’ll do it, but it’s not something I can do with the more complex steps I’ve learned so far.
The bottom line is, countless people have posted things on this topic that dispute Tango crossing relationships by equating it to other non-Tango activities that people are involved in. By its very nature Tango is still an activity that IS sensual, has a greater potential to cross relationship barriers while engaging in it, whereas tennis, golf, ultimate frisbee, or whatever does NOT generally cross over (unless it involves something afterwards).
And lastly, for what it's worth, in at least one case my GF had a relationship with another dancer for 6 years, who went on to be with another Tango dancer, and she knows a several others who ended up in a relationship with a fellow dancer. So goes my 'education' of Tango, 'laughable' or not.
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Tango Newbie
Well-Known Member
I didn't start with the CE on day 1, but it was a couple classes into my journey as a beginner when one of the more experienced students in the beginner class I attend regularly wanted to dance in CE with me. I tried it, and enjoyed it, even though I was only 'walking' and doing the basic 8.I started from day 1 in Close Embrace, with opening for figures that require more room. In many respects, it is easier to lead in CE because of chest to chest contact. OE I see as used for more Nuevo style dancing.
The other advantage of CE is that even a bad dance can be pleasant because of a warm embrace. But that requires a cultural environment (or individuals) which is/are comfortable with members of the opposite sex taken pleasure in close physical contact with each other, without it turning into some sort of drama of confused expectations and so on.
Then, I attended another beginner class at another studio and the instructor had us all doing the CE, and again danced the basic steps with another experienced dancer in a combo class (beg/int), which I enjoyed, as did my partner.
While I'm being exposed to more intermediate and advanced steps that I'm still learning, especially with my weight distribution on my axis, dissociation, and foot placement (without hitting one my GF's toes), one of my biggest 'problems' (if that's what you'd call it) is being too eager to try these more advanced steps. I'm one of those people who when given a challenge, works diligently to master it, and not afraid to 'fail' along the way. What I learned while doing close-order drill and marksmanship training in the Marine Corps is 'muscle-memory' by doing things repetitively until it's ingrained in my brain.
Like I have mentioned in many posts, my GF is very experienced, but at times she has been a little difficult to work with. I'm finding even she can get a little mixed-up when we rehearse something we just did in both the beginner and intermediate classes we attend together. In some ways it seems my GF is slightly impeding my progress, and helping in many others.
My GF and I attended another int/adv class last night, with a follow-on practica. The class didn't go so well, and I hit her toe slightly, and she made a little scene. And it wasn't the first time (happened before). I apologized, and remembered what a few people have said about learning without a wife or significant other. At that time I told my GF it's probably best that I stop taking lessons with her, and go on my own. She made what seemed to be a 'miraculous' recovery, and we went on to do some more practice, and to the practica afterwards (with no problems).
In fact, at the practica we worked on the step(s) we covered with no problems. During one of the tanda's I suggested she dance with another more experienced leader, but she told me she wasn't really interested in dancing with anyone else. During a Cortina, I stepped away for a quick moment to check on my young son (who was with us), and a leader asked her to dance. When she finished a complete 3-song tanda, she explained she's known him and his wife (emphasized that) from another studio. As it turned out he wasn't very good and that I was actually 'better' (even as a beginner).
So, maybe there is hope for me after all, even if I grazed her toe(s) on a couple occasions, and that I'm still not dancing much in the CE to give the followers the 'connection' many are seeking.
TTanguero
Forum Master
Yes and no
You have to be very careful with this early on, as it's easy to ingrain beginner-level technique into muscle memory, and that actually makes it harder to improve your technique later as first you have to unlearn the bad habits.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
That's expected and therefore tolerated in classes!
It's usually acceptable at prácticas. Just be careful that you're not dancing with someone who sees the práctica as a "milonga lite." They'll view it as the next case . . .
It's rarely okay at the milonga. Customarily, you don't dance anything there until it's in what you termed "muscle memory" and – more than that – until you can set it to music without breaking it across measures strangely (which is especially challenging for vals). Traditionalists would practice for up to three years first!
To be honest, you shouldn't be "rehearsing" as such. You should be leading whatever it is you're trying to practice, and she should be following whatever you actually lead . . . not "helping" you with what you're practicing by pretending you led it, whether or not you did.
Wrong
You: "We did turns to the left with two sacadas today. I'm leading turns to the left with two sacadas."
Her: "We did turns to the left with two sacadas today. I'm doing my darnedest to make that work, no matter what I feel in the lead."
You, if your lead doesn't produce the intended results: "You're not doing it right!"
Right
You: "I want to practice turns to the left with two sacadas. I'm leading turns to the left with two sacadas."
Her: "We're practicing. I'm following whatever he's leading, and shouldn't need to know that in advance."
You, if your lead doesn't produce the intended results: "Erk. Let's try that again."
Setting out to rehearse specific steps, each of you trying to make those particular steps work, means you're memorizing a pattern or choreography – not learning to lead and follow spontaneously, which is what is needed to do what I said about setting movements to music. You cannot advance in social Argentine tango that way, only dance stage tango. The "understood response" model isn't accepted in tango.
This is a particularly big deal for advanced followers, who've gone through years of being told over and over never to dance steps and only to dance leads. At some point they reach a mental place where – unless they're teachers who return to work with beginners over and over again – they're aware of and follow what's led, but couldn't tell you what the leader intended to lead.
That isn't meant to come off as harsh. But after around nine years of Argentine tango, I still strive to get to a práctica once or twice a week – and I used to run one. The thing you start to notice if you're practicing around the same people for years – especially if you're helping them – is that the couples who think that there are fixed steps that demand a specific set of movements from each of them, rehearsal-style, don't advance. The couples who "just dance," where the leader simply leads whatever it is they're working on more often than normal, do advance.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Apart from that muscle strength plays a subordinate role in tango and the memory is in the spinal cord or upwards ... the task is ultimately not to shoot but to avoid friendly fire bullets by dancing. And sometimes catching bullets and throwing them back. Or, better still, to become so permeable that hits no longer matter.
This is a source of frustration for some leaders.
There are sometimes a lot of - you were supposed to and - that was not what i led and - that was a parada (accusingly). It is interesting how they tend to over-overemphasize a cross but underemphasize a parada.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
. . . and unlearn the "steps," which become one of the worst habits of rehearsing specific vocabulary rather than practicing general technique.
I occasionally dance with followers who quit their training early because they were young, cute, popular, etc. enough never to sit at the milonga . . . plenty of creepy ol' guys are happy to fondle them and "teach" them. I try to avoid such followers, but sometimes I miss the cues.
Anyway, I can count on these people to cross on every fifth count in eight no matter what I lead, which (quietly, internally) infuriates me. I'm sure that the 8CB is useful for, well, for something or other, but I learned to lead the cross anywhere in the music, through creating and resolving dissociation, which means it can fall on any note (even be "led from zero"), led repeatedly as a form of crossed back step (fun set to milonga), etc. I also learned to walk for more than four counts without "doing something."
It's just bizarre to be leading a forward, parallel walk with your partner square in front of you and to have her force a cross in at 5 in every 8. My lead isn't that wonderful, but I'm certain that I'm not leading that. I'm all for follower proposals, but they do have to make sense!
JournalInTime
Forum Master
That describes the first four years or so of tango for me. I think I'm out of that phase now. I hope so, anyway.This is a source of frustration for some leaders.
I still make the same number of errors, but these days I emphasize responding to each error with suitable improvisation that makes it look like I meant it all along. I think most of my favorite followers do the same in their following.That's in part because of how these things are taught. I remember the teachers at many schools saying two things over and over and over seven or eight years ago:
Cross: "Make the cross really clear, because it's a uniquely tango thing that even experienced dancers don't pick up on otherwise. Move really far into another track to set it up. Change step size to prepare your partner for it. Change speed going in to make it happen. Exaggerate the torso rotation for insurance. Land it hard." (Followed by me paying thousands of $ to a private coach to unlearn that silliness, because all that's actually needed for a cross is to create and then resolve disassociation to move a free leg, anywhere in the dance.)
Parada: "Stop your partner by putting a foot there to tell them not to keep moving." (Followed by me paying more $ to a coach to learn that a parada is just any pause in movement, which can be decorated by a foot in place if you feel like it, but only after your follower has already stopped and you're not in danger of tripping her. There are more dynamic paradas, just as there are more dynamic barridas that actually move the foot rather than moving a foot along as an illusion, but I've never run into them outside of cadenas.)
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Against that, I have developed a special walk with slight linear sacadas against the inside of her legs. But observers might think I delay my going to the toilet a little bit longer.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I confess that sometimes, I've played the linear sacada game, too. The teacher who taught me the trick said, "It looks stupid unless you make your partner look really good, so nobody notices you're doing a bizarre wobbly walk with your knees pressed together. That's your incentive to do it well."Against that, I have developed a special walk with slight linear sacadas against the inside of her legs. But observers might think I delay my going to the toilet a little bit longer.
TTanguero
Forum Master
I was fortunate in having an experienced follower girlfriend to help me avoid that trap! I would always Just Dance, and incorporate whatever we were supposed to be learning into that – that way I'd find out whether I could actually lead it.This is a source of frustration for some leaders.
I had several discussions with my teacher on topic of crosses, as I was not sure if I was inserting crosses randomly if I felt one would fit well into the space or if he was actually leading them. He confirmed he was leading them all. But he is doing it so effortlessly and smoothly that most of the time his lead is indistinguishable from my own thoughts and ideas.
But... like it was mentioned, that kind of leading is expensive to learn, both in time and money.
But... like it was mentioned, that kind of leading is expensive to learn, both in time and money.