opendoor
Forum Master
It is in no way the teacher's job to teach floorcraft. That is the genuine task of the organizer and of all social dancers.
Tango Diaries
- Thread starter Bailango
- Start date
JournalInTime
Forum Master
. . . who aren't doing the job. At all. So, teachers should make an extra effort.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Joe and gang! He claims that he and Danielle were the "real" tango ambassadors in Montréal, and that Paul and Allyson came later. The latter two claim that they were here with tango 2 years earlier, and were more in the Naveira school. Both can produce obscure posters and newspaper articles to support their claims. Both can show you videos.
I have no horse in the race (I learned with Bobby and Allyson both), but it's an interesting secret media war that the vast, vast majority of currently active, 3+ milongas/week dancers here are unaware of.
opendoor
Forum Master
I can't confirm that. Speaking for myself: I went to my first milonga without any prior lessons. Experienced dancers immediately introduced me to the customs and codes, and experienced followers taught me how to dance tango on the fly. Likewise, I often experienced new followers being immediately instructed by the more experienced followers, especially how to deal with closeness and distance. Even today, I see lessons being given on the dance floor everywhere. And I do the same whenever someone new shows up. It's such a good custom.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I can't say that I agree, sorry. There are actually little cards in discreet spots at several of our milongas (I can visualize four without trying hard) that say, "No teaching on the dance floor." It's beyond annoying to have people stopping, talking, pointing, correcting, etc. at the milonga – it disrupts the line of dance and makes it hard to hear the music. All of that is fine at the práctica, of course.
My opinion, with which you are free to disagree (and I suspect with which you most likely will disagree), is that people should learn tango from tango teachers and not other social dancers with all their bad habits and uncorrected poor technique; attend prácticas for at least a few months before they attend milongas; and go to the milonga only after they've absorbed at least basic technique, vocabulary, floorcraft, etc. from teachers and at prácticas. Yes, I'm saying that I prefer academic tango to whatever the other kinds are.
But to emphasize: I am 100% in favor of community-building, knowledge-sharing, mentoring, etc. in tango! I just happen to think that the place for that is mainly the práctica, and to some extent the classroom.
opendoor
Forum Master
I don't have to disagree, because in this thread we're talking about biography, attitude, and experience.
However, I'm surprised by your negative expectations of us fellow dancers. I've only had good experiences, apart from a few assholes, which are present in every social scene. And that's why I still believe that social tango is the beating heart of our movement. However, from the very first tango step, I was very suspicious of the caste of tango teachers. And my prejudices have always been confirmed.
My request: don't turn tango into an integrated training program with a certificate. Nurture social tango by volunteering as a teacher, DJ, cocktail mixologist, or hosting.
I'm ok with giving advice if - and only if - the receiver asks for it.
Everywhere? I do not know if you are extrapolating from your own experience. Rather than an exception, you are implying it happens commonly or everywhere. We must live in two different tango universes.
1. Experience followers have no interest in teaching a new leader. Whether at milongas or practicals. They may make an accomodation to dance with a new leader as an encouragement. But teach? Neither have I seen it anywhere nor according to most experienced followers they have any interest or time to do so.
2. Whatever experience, followers pass on in knowledge to the younger new followers clearly doesn’t get through. Whether it is the codigas or the guys to avoid, etc. I don’t see followers instructing other followers at practicas. I might see only a few experienced leaders doing so to new followers at practicas. I would call most of it as giving tips rather than instructing.
3. I rarely see any instructions by anyone to their partners during milongas. I heard some men do that. As I said, it is a rare occurrence whereever I have danced locally. It’s rare in tango, swing, bachata, salsa, to see someone trying to instruct.
Instructing when social dancing is considered such a taboo in almost all social dancing communities. Exceptions are a dancer bringing along a non-dancer friend for social dancing and trying to get them start dancing. Last time I took a non-tango friend to a milonga, I danced with her in the pista (without giving lessons). Only thing I told her was to try not to think and instead instinctively follow what she feels. It helped she was an experienced follower in other dances. For someone who has no dancing experience, I have danced a simpler dance like bachata. It is easier to tell friends who have zero partner dancing experience, how to do bachata while on the dance floor. But they are friends who came along. Not strangers that I randomly asked for a dance. Salsa and tango are demanding and lessons on the dance floor unlikely to help.
When asked at a milonga:
1. First thing I tell then is that they should ask a qualified teacher
2. Might give them a tip on how to fix (off the dance floor).
3. If I have to show something, it will be again in some space off the dance floor.
#3 happened only one time in the last 5 years!
I feel like this experience is completely different from the vast majority of milongas around the world. I can see it happening in a very small community though where they’re starved for new dancers.
pianistamediano
Forum Master
Was talking with a good friend and fellow DJ during and after a popular monthly milonga about the music — he's a D'Arienzo fanatic, and he still hated all five D'Arienzo tandas played that evening (four tango, one vals). Both of us were utterly confused at the choices the DJ was making that night, and he finally gave up after a Troilo/Nelly Vasquez tanda started. The Di Sarli/Rufino tanda utterly confused me because the mood changed after every song, and there was a completely unknown Pugliese vals tanda with rubbish sound quality. Honestly, I couldn't even tell it was a vals tanda until about half a minute in, and despite having excellent hearing, I couldn't hear the rhythm unless I focused very hard.
I was quite disappointed, because this was the worst set I'd heard yet from that DJ. We're friends, but this was way more experimental and unbalanced than the sets I know he played in the past. Our tastes are adjacent, we both enjoy melodic songs and modern orquestas, but he has a taste for vocals and outright dramatic music (to be distinguished from intense!).
Honestly, I was already in a bad mood (not feeling too well physically) so I danced way less than I usually do (which is still quite little since I'm very selective in general). First tanda was with a very excitable, if sensual, follower to a weird '40s Troilo tanda that tried to be Pugliese (Inspiracion, Chique, Patetico, Quejas de bandoneon). Always great fun with her.
Second and last tanda was with a follower I'd seen many times since moving here but never danced with. She actually cabeceo-ed me (well, more like moved her head towards me and making eye contact while I was walking by to speak with a friend at the end), and it was admittedly a bit of a shocker. She'd never displayed any interest until a few weeks ago at another milonga when she actually started up a short conversation. Further proof that indirect social tactics and the (long term? long view? cunning plan?) chateceo works for followers!
That tanda was Fabio Hager Sexteto — checked it out later, songs were Aqui y ahora, Auscencia infinita, Como en las peliculas, Fragilidad. Ended with an obscure version of La Cumparsita from the late 20s, which I was surprisingly grateful for. Not my usual cup of tea, and one I'd only dance with probably two or three followers in this town. I'm glad I took the risk though. I'd noted the potential of Como en las peliculas before, I really like the piano solo parts, but it's been slowly fermenting in the back of my mind. I'll have to dive into their stuff this week.
For that Piazzolla-esque last tanda, she did make my night way, way better. Willing to play with the music, had good technique and movement, staying with me throughout, did a bit too much decoration than I usually prefer but honestly for that kind of avant-garde, theatrical music, I'd have expected ceiling-high boleos, so it was fine for me. Immensely enjoyable tanda, and the feeling was very much mutual, unless smiling throughout the tanda is a hitherto-unknown sign of depression. More than sensual enough to override my reluctance to dance this kind of music with a follower I'd never danced with before. It would have been ruined if she was too formal and proper, or too inexperienced, or too rhythmic. But thankfully, she wasn't, and I'm hoping to catch her for another tanda next time.
All in all, despite a few weird rejections, way better night than I expected to have.
I was quite disappointed, because this was the worst set I'd heard yet from that DJ. We're friends, but this was way more experimental and unbalanced than the sets I know he played in the past. Our tastes are adjacent, we both enjoy melodic songs and modern orquestas, but he has a taste for vocals and outright dramatic music (to be distinguished from intense!).
Honestly, I was already in a bad mood (not feeling too well physically) so I danced way less than I usually do (which is still quite little since I'm very selective in general). First tanda was with a very excitable, if sensual, follower to a weird '40s Troilo tanda that tried to be Pugliese (Inspiracion, Chique, Patetico, Quejas de bandoneon). Always great fun with her.
Second and last tanda was with a follower I'd seen many times since moving here but never danced with. She actually cabeceo-ed me (well, more like moved her head towards me and making eye contact while I was walking by to speak with a friend at the end), and it was admittedly a bit of a shocker. She'd never displayed any interest until a few weeks ago at another milonga when she actually started up a short conversation. Further proof that indirect social tactics and the (long term? long view? cunning plan?) chateceo works for followers!
That tanda was Fabio Hager Sexteto — checked it out later, songs were Aqui y ahora, Auscencia infinita, Como en las peliculas, Fragilidad. Ended with an obscure version of La Cumparsita from the late 20s, which I was surprisingly grateful for. Not my usual cup of tea, and one I'd only dance with probably two or three followers in this town. I'm glad I took the risk though. I'd noted the potential of Como en las peliculas before, I really like the piano solo parts, but it's been slowly fermenting in the back of my mind. I'll have to dive into their stuff this week.
For that Piazzolla-esque last tanda, she did make my night way, way better. Willing to play with the music, had good technique and movement, staying with me throughout, did a bit too much decoration than I usually prefer but honestly for that kind of avant-garde, theatrical music, I'd have expected ceiling-high boleos, so it was fine for me. Immensely enjoyable tanda, and the feeling was very much mutual, unless smiling throughout the tanda is a hitherto-unknown sign of depression. More than sensual enough to override my reluctance to dance this kind of music with a follower I'd never danced with before. It would have been ruined if she was too formal and proper, or too inexperienced, or too rhythmic. But thankfully, she wasn't, and I'm hoping to catch her for another tanda next time.
All in all, despite a few weird rejections, way better night than I expected to have.
opendoor
Forum Master
With an attitude like that, you're naturally welcome fodder for all self-proclaimed tango teachers. Why are you so dependent on others?
opendoor
Forum Master
These two different universes exist in the same space-time continuum. It's happening to you right now, but you don't seem to notice it. Your own attitude determines what you perceive.
Google exists nowadays, you can look up a self proclaimed tango teacher’s credentials.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Indeed!
Also, while I can't speak for other communities, here, anyone you've seen at multiple milongas per week for longer than a few years is well aware of who's a teacher and who's a "teacher." Asking around can discover a supposed teacher's background (e.g., "some guy who took a couple of classes in 2020," "retired lawyer and longtime social dancer who teaches as a retirement project," or "new teacher fresh out of CETBA"), years of overall tango experience, years of tango teaching experience, associates (their origin studio, local teachers, and possibly tango lineage if they or their teachers studied with anyone famous), and useful extras ("also 10 years in the national ballet," "also a certified Feldenkrais practitioner," "also plays bandoneón," etc.). Applying sensible research practices – say, asking more than one source, and ideally a largish odd number like 5, 7, or 9, to break ties – quickly sorts facts from gossip.
A total newcomer probably can't do that, of course. They should pick an established school that owns or rents a physical premises with a proper dance floor, mirrors, trade dress, etc., that has a website, and that shows up near the top of the first page in a Google search for "tango school near me." No quasi-teacher is going to pay for all that to puff up their ego . . . especially anywhere real estate prices and rent are ludicrous for spaces large enough to use as dance studios (definitely the case here). They should avoid "schools" that borrow space once a week or meet at somebody's house, and that advertise by word of mouth. But after a semester or two at whatever established school they find, they'll get the information in my first paragraph on other teachers, including ones who are legitimate despite borrowing space or using their living room.