TTanguero
Forum Master
You may assume what you wish! I'm saying that all of the other stylistic terms you use are entirely meaningless in my view because any definition you were to come up with would be immediately challenged by somebody else.
Tango Diaries
- Thread starter Bailango
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opendoor
Forum Master
That's of course true. But I thought, the milonga is for dancing, and a forum is for discussion and clever conversations...
And that's both the advantage and disadvantage of a dance with no formal, accepted, standards or definitions. Style discussions are mostly futile, except for historical precedents and comfort/appearance in dancing now.
I actually like the concept of Nuevo style and it seems great when pros dance that way, but I think one needs to get good at milonguero/salon style first since they serve as the building blocks of good technique before diving into nuevo stuff. Unfortunately in nyc, most of the people who dance at the nuevo events are in general not great dancers in my opinion.
I equate it to fusion cuisine, if for example a chef is actually good at making both chinese and mexican food and decided to have a go with a fusion dish from those two cultures, it can be really good. However most fusion places the chef is barely good at cooking dishes from one culture, so trying to make a fusion with another culture ends up terrible and can be even offensive to some people.
Similar to nuevo tango, if both dancers are good at tango in general it can work really well and look awesome. However from my experience most of the people who gravitate towards it in my area are poor tango dancers overall and watching them dance nuevo can be sorta cringey/embarrassing (and i’m usually fine watching beginners dance).
I equate it to fusion cuisine, if for example a chef is actually good at making both chinese and mexican food and decided to have a go with a fusion dish from those two cultures, it can be really good. However most fusion places the chef is barely good at cooking dishes from one culture, so trying to make a fusion with another culture ends up terrible and can be even offensive to some people.
Similar to nuevo tango, if both dancers are good at tango in general it can work really well and look awesome. However from my experience most of the people who gravitate towards it in my area are poor tango dancers overall and watching them dance nuevo can be sorta cringey/embarrassing (and i’m usually fine watching beginners dance).
pianistamediano
Forum Master
I have never gone to any nuevo/alt events, nor do I feel any need or want to for that reason and more. Plus, I've listened to a few sample playlists, and it seems to me that it's almost everything goes with regards to music, which is too slapdash.
Knowing who goes to these events is enough to put me off, and from what I hear, they often devolve into some vague interpretation of fusion dance that many dancers there will defend as their own personal, unique take on tango — even (especially?) when it's just really bad.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
The issue here is that the music of so-called tango alternativo is being played, and that attracts people who dance tango, but also people who dance whatever is usually danced to that music, plus people who are aware that it's tango + other dances and want to dance fusion . . . and then a lot of traditional tango people identify this with tango nuevo. Except that "neo-tango" and alternative music has nothing to do with tango nuevo dance, and nuevo dance isn't really what those people are dancing, but a thing defined by Naveira, Salas, et al. So you end up with nuevo, a valid classification system, being associated with a random mixture of music and dances.
There is definitely a lot of sloppy fusion around, but on the other hand, who hasn't turned up at a "traditional" event where both the music and dancers are completely uninspiring?
I am in favour of modernization, but imo it is better to get rid of the baggage associated with "nuevo", "milonguero" etc
I am in favour of modernization, but imo it is better to get rid of the baggage associated with "nuevo", "milonguero" etc
Alternative events are yet another issue. To be fair, there's occasionally music that inspires me, and 60/40, or better 70/30, or just some occasional alt tanda is ok, and can be enjoyable. Once upon a time I didn't appreciate traditional AT music and longed for something contemporary.
Amongst those I know who go to such events are a group of ladies. They're good enough traditional AT dancers, but they long for the freedom of somewhere which doesn't expect cabeceo/mirada, or other códigos, and the issues of being invited to dance. And something inspirational.
Alt and nuevo sometimes seem to combine, so sometimes seen as the same thing. At others there's a fusion. But you're right that these degenerate into some uncertain fusion mix.
pianistamediano
Forum Master
so essentially a place where verbal invitations from either role are de rigueur? I can see how it appeals to them. If one already knows (and dances, I guess) with enough people, then no matter what kind of event it is, you achieve the same effect.
Very few people now still conceive of tango nuevo as the system that is the brainchild of the Naveira/Salas gang — it's become a catch-all term for dancing any kind of tango to alt/nuevo music.
Then what about the context of music, as opposed to the context of dance/movement?
Even as a DJ, the way I categorise things isn't universal at all — I generally tend to call songs that aren't meant to be in a tango context (like AWOLNATION's Sail, Sineterra's Ariele e Calibano) alt, while songs that are at least tango-related but not within the purview of traditional or modern tango orquestas/groups I consider nuevo, like Craig Einhorn's Milonguea del Ayer or Alper Akgul's Milonga for Moonlight.
Even so, there's a lot of overlap. I love Amores Tangos' Toda Milonga, but I'd call it nuevo-ish. Milonga para as missões is great fun, but I'd still call it nuevo too. Then you have stuff like Hyperion Ensemble's Ludwig van Milonga. Is it tango moderno? Is it nuevo?
Then there's the milongas camperas like No soy aquí, ni soy de allá or the milonga uruguaya, El Violin de Becho, by Zitarrosa. Maybe "nuevo" as a term for music has become too broad, but that broadness gives us DJs much more flexibility in creating tandas.
pianistamediano
Forum Master
Well, I'd rather close my eyes and listen to tango lyrics than watch incompetent dancers undulating in strange ways and trying to get as close as possible to a contact improvisation jam without actually doing contact improv...
Well if you're closing your eyes anyway, might as well listen to some higher quality audio.
Miradamiranda
Well-Known Member
That’s a shame, but fits the tendency and mindset often mentioned here, of newbies wanting all the flashy moves before they are ready.
However, it doesn’t have to be so. Those of my favorite partners with the highest technical abilities and a penchant for flashy moves, are ALSO very good at all “styles” of tango moves. They just kept challenging themselves instead of resting comfortably within a certain subcategory. So, for me, the experience of following these guys is never boring, I can dance 20 songs the same event with the same partner, and not two are anywhere near the same. But most importantly, they are skilled with floor craft, so IF there are very large moves, I can trust that there will be no collisions or holding up the ronda.
I went to two long weekend event this past summer only a month apart, and they couldn’t have been any more different. One only classic milonguero but constant never-ending collisions, the other with much younger flashier ambitious clientele where I hardly saw a single collision despite flying heels.
I am not interested in being pigeonholed as a certain type of dancer, I like it mostly all. As long as the flashy moves still make sense musically, are not gratuitously flashy without a good reason, and the connection with the partner and the music is not compromised, it’s all good.
opendoor
Forum Master
You don't know the facts: It was only with the arrival of Naveira, aka Nuevo, that things like technique, fundamentals, discipline, and systematic approach entered tango instruction! You're probably an unconscious Nuevo dancer yourself if you can judge the lack of technique in others. No one's ever told you!
That's a different matter, because it has so much more to do with the actual composition of dancers at an event. Upon closer analysis, the dancers you're talking about might not be neo- and nuevo-dancers at all. Often they are confused with contact and fusion dancers. I know this because, through my theater work, I use contact improvisation extensively on stage.
I feel vindicated in having started this style discussion: Nuevo is not something you can see from the outside; it is a path of training that is more noticeable from within and in its implementation with a partner. There are so many prejudices out there, we should talk about them more.
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That appears to be a lesser social consideration elsewhere, although it is pertinent. It's perceived as friendlier and less formal than AT (it depends on the stratum level of the milonga). Complete strangers converse and invite verbally
. It's fun! AT has to be serious, and dour
I agree. To many 'nuevo' is 'alternative' using contemporary, non-traditional tango music. Naveira et al are unknown and irrelevant, as is Piazzolla, in this 'fusion' context.
DJ? Mostly someone stuck a playlist together. If it has 'milonga' in the name, they go together - whatever the speed. But the music you mention wouldn't appear at some 100% alternative, although they could appear in some tandas at a traditional milonga. The closest might be some electrotango, but anything 'electro'.
The playlist situation even at traditional AT milongas can be bad as well, but there are sometimes some good selections - which may also be a factor for some people.
opendoor
Forum Master
But isn't that escapism for the sake of peace? As soon as you withdraw, you leave the field to those who use false definitions, lump everything together, or deliberately denigrate others. You can see for yourself!