Teachers: do you dance at Milongas?

[Subliminal]

For me, the best dances are when I do the least steps. They are when my partner and I simply move together, to the music. I understand that many guys don't understand this, so they do steps instead. The only way to really figure it out, IMO, is to throw away the footwork first, then you can begin to realize that there is a more satisfying layer underlying. Sure, I throw in a fancy step occasionally, just for spice, but I'm aware that I sacrifice the connection for a moment every time I do it.

See, this idea of minimalism irritates the hell out of me. (I don't mean to pick on you specifically AndaBien, it's come up before a bunch of times in this forum, and it set off a rant. )

I've seen leaders who practice minimalism time and time again disparage "step monsters". But these are leaders who already have years of experience, went through their own tango journey, and now get the fact that you don't need the fancy steps to dance tango. They perch high on their mountain tops, looking down upon the lesser mortals.

But maybe, just maybe, going through the motions of deconstructing steps is an integral part of the tango journey for some leaders. Maybe you have to come to the minimalist approach on your own. And maybe some people never will, or will figure it out but decide that they prefer complexity anyway. Does that make them wrong?

Believe me, I tried when I first started, at the advice of others on this forum. And it just did not work. At least for me. I had to go through the motions of figuring out the transitions for each movement, and practice them again and again. I even wrote my own practice syllabus. *gasp* I know, scandal.

I learned volcadas and colgadas. Do I lead them? Almost never. But they taught me something about the follower's balance. I learned all manner of whirling sacadas within the turn. Do I lead them? Rarely. But they taught me better timing and made me really refine how I lead turns. I can, now, with confidence lead an entire dance with nothing but walking, or nothing but ochos, rock steps, and non-fancy turns. But I couldn't have done that a year ago, even if in my mind I knew it was possible.

 

[Madahlia]

Sure, I throw in a fancy step occasionally, just for spice, but I'm aware that I sacrifice the connection for a moment every time I do it.

Thank God, it's not just me. It bugs me when this happens and i've always blamed myself for inadequate following technique.

 

[tangomonkey]

See, this idea of minimalism irritates the hell out of me. (I don't mean to pick on you specifically AndaBien, it's come up before a bunch of times in this forum, and it set off a rant. )

I've seen leaders who practice minimalism time and time again disparage "step monsters". But these are leaders who already have years of experience, went through their own tango journey, and now get the fact that you don't need the fancy steps to dance tango. They perch high on their mountain tops, looking down upon the lesser mortals.

But maybe, just maybe, going through the motions of deconstructing steps is an integral part of the tango journey for some leaders. Maybe you have to come to the minimalist approach on your own. And maybe some people never will, or will figure it out but decide that they prefer complexity anyway. Does that make them wrong?

Believe me, I tried when I first started, at the advice of others on this forum. And it just did not work. At least for me. I had to go through the motions of figuring out the transitions for each movement, and practice them again and again. I even wrote my own practice syllabus. *gasp* I know, scandal.

I learned volcadas and colgadas. Do I lead them? Almost never. But they taught me something about the follower's balance. I learned all manner of whirling sacadas within the turn. Do I lead them? Rarely. But they taught me better timing and made me really refine how I lead turns. I can, now, with confidence lead an entire dance with nothing but walking, or nothing but ochos, rock steps, and non-fancy turns. But I couldn't have done that a year ago, even if in my mind I knew it was possible.

Yes - agreed. That was my pretty much my learning experience too - the technical aspects anyway.

 

[bordertangoman]

I learned volcadas and colgadas. Do I lead them? Almost never. But they taught me something about the follower's balance. I learned all manner of whirling sacadas within the turn. Do I lead them? Rarely. But they taught me better timing and made me really refine how I lead turns. I can, now, with confidence lead an entire dance with nothing but walking, or nothing but ochos, rock steps, and non-fancy turns. But I couldn't have done that a year ago, even if in my mind I knew it was possible.

I think there is something reaaly important in the colgada/volcada its about sharing energy; i would agree also that they add to the quality of my turns; becuase my whole body and hers- is involved in the dance, so very often there is no decision to do a colgada; its just I want to turn with this much energy or from this point and that's what works.

They are when my partner and I simply move together, to the music.[/quote] I agree entirely with this, I just dont need the dance to be simplified to do it.

watch Pablo Veron and sally potter's vals by the Seine and he is often leaning back to give energy to his partners forward step;
thats how i feel my dance to be, particlurly in vals

 

[UKDancer]

I can, now, with confidence lead an entire dance with nothing but walking, or nothing but ochos, rock steps, and non-fancy turns. But I couldn't have done that a year ago, even if in my mind I knew it was possible.

I'd love to have a chance to go on a decently lead workshop that had at its focus sorting out just what, exactly, a leader might do, beat by beat, to produce one of these simple but satisfying dances. I do understand that this sounds like 'please choreograph a dance for me, so that I can learn the routine', but I don't mean that, at all. What I do mean, is to have an experienced leader guide me through the labyrinth of selecting when to move, and when to be still, in what directions, and with what actions: when to be clear and rhythmical, and when to be softer and lyrical.

It sounds so easy: I can't do it! Neither can most beginning dancers either, so either the way that tango is largely taught is missing the real essence of the dance, or we weren't concentrating. It's very frustrating.

Just out of interest, can anyone suggest anything on, say, YouTube, that would be a fair reflection of 'just a simple satisfying dance' rather than some clever, showy stuff. I am the exact reverse of those interested in the current thread looking at the musical analysis of pieces like El Choclo: I can hear the music's structure, but I can't 'think' or feel my way into a dance that reflects what I hear. I want analysis of the different ways of movement and styles that work. Given some source material, I can do my own analysis, and while I'm perfectly well aware that anything I come up with in the short term is just going to be a pastiche of someone else's dancing, we all have to start somewhere.

If you ask a complete novice to 'just dance the music' they will either make a complete idiot of themselves, or stand completely still, while looking very puzzled. I feel like that much of the time, but because I know I can't actually stand still, I fall back, all too often, into formulaic patterns that are anything but improvised. It's not working for me, just now, but perhaps I have reached the point where I am ready to move on. They do say it's darkest before dawn...

 

[dchester]

See, this idea of minimalism irritates the hell out of me. (I don't mean to pick on you specifically AndaBien, it's come up before a bunch of times in this forum, and it set off a rant. )

I've seen leaders who practice minimalism time and time again disparage "step monsters". But these are leaders who already have years of experience, went through their own tango journey, and now get the fact that you don't need the fancy steps to dance tango. They perch high on their mountain tops, looking down upon the lesser mortals.

But maybe, just maybe, going through the motions of deconstructing steps is an integral part of the tango journey for some leaders. Maybe you have to come to the minimalist approach on your own. And maybe some people never will, or will figure it out but decide that they prefer complexity anyway. Does that make them wrong?

Believe me, I tried when I first started, at the advice of others on this forum. And it just did not work. At least for me. I had to go through the motions of figuring out the transitions for each movement, and practice them again and again. I even wrote my own practice syllabus. *gasp* I know, scandal.

I learned volcadas and colgadas. Do I lead them? Almost never. But they taught me something about the follower's balance. I learned all manner of whirling sacadas within the turn. Do I lead them? Rarely. But they taught me better timing and made me really refine how I lead turns. I can, now, with confidence lead an entire dance with nothing but walking, or nothing but ochos, rock steps, and non-fancy turns. But I couldn't have done that a year ago, even if in my mind I knew it was possible.

I think everyone has to take their own journey. I simply wasn't interested in minimalism when I started out. It wasn't until I got some "exposure" to every step/move I was interested in, before my focus changed.

To some extent, I agree with you about the disparaging comments from others, and hope nothing I have about the subject came across that way to you. I'm certainly not above doing colcadas/single axis turns to the right song, but to other songs I might not even do a back ocho.

 

[bordertangoman]

I'd love to have a chance to go on a decently lead workshop that had at its focus sorting out just what, exactly, a leader might do, beat by beat, to produce one of these simple but satisfying dances. I do understand that that sounds like 'please choreograph a dance for me, so that I can learn the routine', but I don't mean that, at all. What I do mean, is to have an experienced leader guide me through the labyrinth of selecting when to move, and when to be still, in what directions, and with what actions: when to be clear and rhythmical, and when to be softer and lyrical.

I'd be happy to do that

It sounds so easy: I can't do it! Neither can most beginning dancers either, so either the way that tango is largely taught is missing the real essence of the dance, or we weren't concentrating. It's very frustrating.

Just out of interest, can anyone suggest anything on, say, YouTube, that would be a fair reflection of 'just a simple satisfying dance' rather than some clever, showy stuff. I am the exact reverse of those interested in the current tread looking at the musical analysis of pieces like El Choclo: I can hear the music's structure, but I can't 'think' or feel my way into a dance that reflects what I hear. I want analysis of the different ways of movement and styles that work. Given some source material, I can do my own analysis, and while I'm perfectly well aware that anything I come up with in the short term is just going to be a pastiche of someone else's dancing, we all have to start somewhere.

If you ask a complete novice to 'just dance the music' they will either make a complete idiot of themselves, or stand completely still, while looking very puzzled. I feel like that much of the time, but because I know I can't actually stand still, I fall back, all too often, into formulaic patterns that are anything but improvised. It's not working for me, just now, but perhaps I have reached the point where I am ready to move on. They do say it's darkest before dawn...

forget about El Choclo and try Bahia Blanca: Di Sarli; just move with the flow and pause of the music; its all lyrical; become the violin or bandoneon, another I use in class as an exercise is Knock 123 by Imelda May; you dance to her singing; its slow, sensuous, slow your dancing right down and learn to "hang" a step.- (pausing without feeling you've stopped)

 

[UKDancer]

forget about El Choclo and try Bahia Blanca: Di Sarli; just move with the flow and pause of the music; its all lyrical; become the violin or bandoneon, another I use in class as an exercise is Knock 123 by Imelda May; you dance to her singing; its slow, sensuous, slow your dancing right down and learn to "hang" a step.- (pausing without feeling you've stopped)

O goodness, I wasn't suggesting that El Choclo would be the place to start!

I know Bahia Blanca well, but (and don't be offended, I don't mean to be rude) saying 'just move with the flow and pause of the music' is like a red rag to a bull. Move: How? Do you mean simple walking steps that match the slow pulse? How many? Then what?

I have a mental picture (but it's too vague to be any real help) of the characteristics of such a dance, but when it comes to practicalities, I run into problems very quickly.

The music has just started: I'm on the floor and I hear the first eight bars: all very lyrical with 2 x 2-bar call and response, but then when the tune is repeated (which is just as we all move off) the character changes dramatically, for now we have 2 bars of ric tic tic, and then two bars of lyrical response. He does it again, ending the eight bar phrase with a 'tiddly-pom'. So, what do I lead? It sure feels, as I walk off, that I am about to take my partner over a cliff.

Do you see?

 

[tangomonkey]

I am the exact reverse of those interested in the current thread looking at the musical analysis of pieces like El Choclo: I can hear the music's structure, but I can't 'think' or feel my way into a dance that reflects what I hear.

I suspect that's because you do not yet have enough technique to allow you stop thinking when dancing. You cannot do both at the same time, IMO. If you can lead your partner to step in all directions and lead pivots you can dance the music. Simplify, simplify, simplify. As has already been said...

Knowing the structure is a small part of it. Knowing how all the elements combine to create a particular emotion at any given time and feeling that emotion on the floor is what matters. If you feel the music surge, take a big step. If the music is calm, move slowly and take pauses. If the music is fast, do some turns...

 

[tangomonkey]

The music has just started: I'm on the floor and I hear the first eight bars: all very lyrical with 2 x 2-bar call and response, but then when the tune is repeated (which is just as we all move off) the character changes dramatically, for now we have 2 bars of ric tic tic, and then two bars of lyrical response. He does it again, ending the eight bar phrase with a 'tiddly-pom'. So, what do I lead? It sure feels, as I walk off, that I am about to take my partner over a cliff.

Now where have I heard that "call and response" stuff before?

Seriously, learn the music, then you will not be surprised. The more music you actively listen to in the tango repertoire the less and less you will surprised by anything you will routinely hear in a milonga.

 

[UKDancer]

Seriously, learn the music, then you will not be surprised. The more music you actively listen to the less and less you will surprised by anything you will routinely hear in a milonga.

I know much of the music quite well, and so many of the Golden Age songs have a very simple structure, so the music is rarely a suprise. That isn't the issue (it might be for others, but not for me). The issue for me is what element of my tango vocabulary to use at any point.

Not suprisingly, I am much better on an empty floor. If I can do just anything that doesn't involve dancing into the walls or the furniture, I do much better. My usual problems start in the relatively crowded conditions of sharing the floor with others. The couple in front of me always seem to stop, completely, and keep stopping completely. The couple behind me never seem to have noticed this, and the space which I have at my disposal gets smaller and smaller! There's a limit to how many times you can do weight changes in place, or how many revolutions your partner takes in that giro before she falls over from dizziness. Pehaps I should seek out followers who are accomplished Viennese Waltz dancers, then we could just go around and around...

 

[AndaBien]

...But these are leaders who already have years of experience, went through their own tango journey, and now get the fact that you don't need the fancy steps to dance tango. They perch high on their mountain tops, looking down upon the lesser mortals...

I didn't mean to disparage the journey; I have been on it myself, as I've admitted several times in past threads. I fully understand the process. I did the journey many years ago when I was a fancy folk dancer and began to understand genuine ethic dance. I did it a second time as I was learning AT.

However, I didn't have anyone telling me what to look for, and I would have appreciated it. I may not have believed it, but it would have sown a seed in my mind. When tango dancers are struggling to find that wonderful thing in the dance, I tell them my experience.

@UKDancer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgWMs0rAcJk
You'll also notice that he travels around the outside edge of the floor. That's just how he dances. I feel certain that his partner was thrilled with the dance he gave her.

 

[dchester]

I'd love to have a chance to go on a decently lead workshop that had at its focus sorting out just what, exactly, a leader might do, beat by beat, to produce one of these simple but satisfying dances. I do understand that this sounds like 'please choreograph a dance for me, so that I can learn the routine', but I don't mean that, at all. What I do mean, is to have an experienced leader guide me through the labyrinth of selecting when to move, and when to be still, in what directions, and with what actions: when to be clear and rhythmical, and when to be softer and lyrical.

Musicality classes sometimes cover this type of stuff. Also (and even more rare) classes on connection, might cover some of this.

Listening to tango music (like when driving in the car, or when relaxing at home), will help with this. When just listening, try tapping a finger to the music, and let it represent when you would step. The more familiar with the music, the easier it becomes, and eventually you can do it with most any song (even ones you've never heard before).

 

[bordertangoman]

O goodness, I wasn't suggesting that El Choclo would be the place to start!

I know Bahia Blanca well, but (and don't be offended, I don't mean to be rude) saying 'just move with the flow and pause of the music' is like a red rag to a bull. Move: How? Do you mean simple walking steps that match the slow pulse? How many? Then what?

I have a mental picture (but it's too vague to be any real help) of the characteristics of such a dance, but when it comes to practicalities, I run into problems very quickly.

The music has just started: I'm on the floor and I hear the first eight bars: all very lyrical with 2 x 2-bar call and response, but then when the tune is repeated (which is just as we all move off) the character changes dramatically, for now we have 2 bars of ric tic tic, and then two bars of lyrical response. He does it again, ending the eight bar phrase with a 'tiddly-pom'. So, what do I lead? It sure feels, as I walk off, that I am about to take my partner over a cliff.

Do you see?

i appreciate your frustration; its just a lot easier to demonstrate in a class than explain with words; the over the cliff analogy works as long as the fall lasts 2:51.

I sometimes get my class to dance solo first so they dont have to worry about leading and they pay more attention to the music..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvQ3wgo9jLc

ok; here's Chicho's interpretation; he's fairly restrained and uses pauses, and picks up on the responses occaisionally. does this help?

 

[ant]

The issue for me is what element of my tango vocabulary to use at any point.

Not suprisingly, I am much better on an empty floor.

IMO UKD you need to go to some good milongas (usually weekenders) where there is a lot of dance floor time and followers of a reasonable standard that have some time to help. I think a lot of the learning of AT is within the dance itself and there is no way you can substitute that.