ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Not a huge Tete fan, but this is interesting. Back pressure. I was told (and use) a firm (not hard, not pressured) embrace is preferable and also to position the arm/hand across the the middle of the woman's back.
The apilado equation
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ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I suppose. I would love to see an example of this though. Obviously, it's a big tent and there's room for a lot of variation, but I've never seen the kind of mutual lean that is often referred to as apilado.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I have never heard a teacher mention this much less try to teach it and they all taught us to dance while abrazando.
opendoor
Forum Master
Me either. I do not know where and when the term arose. Obviously there is some technical overlap with figures like the volcadas, as well as with the stylistic characterizations of milonguero, confitería, del centro, or almagro style.
Perhaps it originally designated only those spectacular poses Gavito did on stage. But as the term volcada already was hijacked by Naveira, the term apilado served to keep the tango vocabulary (and thus the tango creed) separated. (my 2 ç )
If I may interject to hopefully add some more understanding.
Firstly, even though Tete & Silvia could really dance,
they are not a good model because his physicality
can be somewhat misleading. So an embrace which works
for them will not necessarily work for others. And that
applies more generally - each partnership has to find
an embrace which works for them.
But there is a starting point although I've never come across
it being taught. I have come across the lean from the ankles,
indeed I was taught that thought that the way was to stand
one foot apart and lean towards each other. Back pain results
for me and for other men since it exacerbates back injuries
or weaknesses.
So let's go to Argentina and a time of relative physical
fitness and activity before today's sedentary lifestyles.
It's said that men practised together and I believe that
the milongero way derived from the man-hug, still done
today in Buenos Aires, and the attempt to practise and
develop their dancing while in that man-hug.
So to analyse the man-hug, it starts from being close
together - just a relatively very few inches apart and
feet maybe only 2 or 3 inches of separation, nothing
like a foot's length apart as I was taught.
Now bend slightly from the hip-joint. In today's society
you may have to work out how to do this but once it was
the natural way of bending and by far the safest and
most effective. Both partners thus bend physically meeting
by contact at the upper chest. Now embrace with arms
as shown by Tete - the man's right arm can wrap around
the woman's back reaching with the hand all the way to the
right side of her body just below her armpit. Again the final
position depends and the mix of the physicalities.
The man's left arm and the woman's right should have
some freedom, even looseness, more or less as Tete
describes. The lead and connection is at the chest.
Both heads should turn slight leftwards to help alignment
and/or Covid-19! You now can experiment dancing together
in unison and harmony.
The question of the "apilado" (piled up or on) term derives
from the position of the woman's left arm as it reaches over
her partner's right shoulder and around the back of his neck
but without pressure and very little weight.
So here is a video of my favourite milonguero
Her you can see Ricardo bend at the hip joint while his
torso remains well aligned. Liz Haight on the other hand
is the complete opposite. On tippy toes and not grounded,
she reverse bends because she is leaning to embrace.
But still she receives all the messages and there's no
doubting her ability to dance.
Maths, spreadsheets, the mechanics of beams or ladders
are not helpful here when you thinking about and/or
dynamically utilsing the complex mulitple jointed beings
that are human bodies. Double the problem with two of them.
Firstly, even though Tete & Silvia could really dance,
they are not a good model because his physicality
can be somewhat misleading. So an embrace which works
for them will not necessarily work for others. And that
applies more generally - each partnership has to find
an embrace which works for them.
But there is a starting point although I've never come across
it being taught. I have come across the lean from the ankles,
indeed I was taught that thought that the way was to stand
one foot apart and lean towards each other. Back pain results
for me and for other men since it exacerbates back injuries
or weaknesses.
So let's go to Argentina and a time of relative physical
fitness and activity before today's sedentary lifestyles.
It's said that men practised together and I believe that
the milongero way derived from the man-hug, still done
today in Buenos Aires, and the attempt to practise and
develop their dancing while in that man-hug.
So to analyse the man-hug, it starts from being close
together - just a relatively very few inches apart and
feet maybe only 2 or 3 inches of separation, nothing
like a foot's length apart as I was taught.
Now bend slightly from the hip-joint. In today's society
you may have to work out how to do this but once it was
the natural way of bending and by far the safest and
most effective. Both partners thus bend physically meeting
by contact at the upper chest. Now embrace with arms
as shown by Tete - the man's right arm can wrap around
the woman's back reaching with the hand all the way to the
right side of her body just below her armpit. Again the final
position depends and the mix of the physicalities.
The man's left arm and the woman's right should have
some freedom, even looseness, more or less as Tete
describes. The lead and connection is at the chest.
Both heads should turn slight leftwards to help alignment
and/or Covid-19! You now can experiment dancing together
in unison and harmony.
The question of the "apilado" (piled up or on) term derives
from the position of the woman's left arm as it reaches over
her partner's right shoulder and around the back of his neck
but without pressure and very little weight.
So here is a video of my favourite milonguero
Her you can see Ricardo bend at the hip joint while his
torso remains well aligned. Liz Haight on the other hand
is the complete opposite. On tippy toes and not grounded,
she reverse bends because she is leaning to embrace.
But still she receives all the messages and there's no
doubting her ability to dance.
Maths, spreadsheets, the mechanics of beams or ladders
are not helpful here when you thinking about and/or
dynamically utilsing the complex mulitple jointed beings
that are human bodies. Double the problem with two of them.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
Yes, the perfect apilado position - perfect for a bad back.
You can imagine the dangerous spinal forces just from the photo.
You will not find that in Buenos Aires social milonga.
Mind you, in some (especially where there are the young)
you can find other different bad postures.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
Lucky us!
It seems that the whole thing in this form has disappeared:
I think that my partner and I found a variation when I offered my right shoulder to her. The force was directed in line to my shoulder, to the leg and heel. Maybe a homemade combination of canyengue, milonguero according to the styles below.
I checked back in time on community site and year 2009 these styles were discussed:
- CANYENGUE. close abrazo, "V"-position
- ORILLERO. close abrazo.
- MILONGUERO. "abrazo apilado", close abrazo, torso contact maintained all time, shared balance axis
- TANGO de SALÓN. own balansaxel, open or closed abrazo
- TANGO NUEVO (Neo tango). open and elastic abrazo, own balance, "Soltadas", "volcadas" och "saltos
TANGO FANTASÍA (scentango) (should not be danced socially)
It seems that the whole thing in this form has disappeared:
I think that my partner and I found a variation when I offered my right shoulder to her. The force was directed in line to my shoulder, to the leg and heel. Maybe a homemade combination of canyengue, milonguero according to the styles below.
I checked back in time on community site and year 2009 these styles were discussed:
- CANYENGUE. close abrazo, "V"-position
- ORILLERO. close abrazo.
- MILONGUERO. "abrazo apilado", close abrazo, torso contact maintained all time, shared balance axis
- TANGO de SALÓN. own balansaxel, open or closed abrazo
- TANGO NUEVO (Neo tango). open and elastic abrazo, own balance, "Soltadas", "volcadas" och "saltos
TANGO FANTASÍA (scentango) (should not be danced socially)
opendoor
Forum Master
Those descriptions show that we definitely have left such a poor level of technical and analytical understanding LadyLeader. Seems that the author (still alive?) used "apilado" synonymously for any sort of close embrace (let it be a V-, A-, Canyengue, milonguero, or salón hold).
I personally find it more comfortable (and painless) to use the ankle rather than the hip as the hinge point. The angle is less for the same amount of horizontal force.
There seems to be mostly consensus that some amount of horizontal force is correct in close embrace, both in order to feel more like a "real" embrace and have a better functioning contact point for the partners to feel each others' movements. When I was experimenting with the amount, I didn't feel that going past the range where the centre of gravity was over the front of the foot actually felt any better.
I suspect most of this is within the realm of personal preference.
Loisa Donnay
Active Member
Well, technically it's a milonga, but...
Last edited:
Yes, you cannot ignore personal preference, nor personal experience,
nor personal health, strength, nor physicality.
I am surprised you rate the pain worse for hip-joint hingeing,
assuming you are meaning that because in my experience
many people ignore the hip joint and think the hips are higher.
After all, hipster trousers are not settled at the hip joint!
Like many things in tango I had to work at the physicality
of hip-joint hinging. And I feel that "force" is a too strong
interpretation, more like intention. Words alone cannot
reliably convey meaning and understanding.
So, perhaps, try this.
Stand facing the edge of a door, feet a couple of inches
from the edge and body positioned so when you lean
your head can go to the left of the door. Now experiment
by bending at the hip joint. On making chest contact your
weight will have moved towards the front of your feet but
will not be in front of your. There's no feeling of being in
danger of losing balance or control should the door be
suddenly removed and your can easily recover your normal
verticality using feet and ankles. You also can also control
the forward intention you can give in the door hinge direction.
This control is very different to leaning rather from the ankles
and it also highers the connection level of the bodies.
If this doesn't feel comfortable or attainable then look
to core strength improvement. For a while I used the door
as a practice tool to develop the control. An Argentine dancer
Talking about this with an Argentine the morning after his
birthday party the night before he went he placed a folded
blanket on the wall at chest height and leaned against it
so that the blanket gave space for his head. An alternative.
Of course I don't know your physicality and that has to be
taken into account. It would have been pointless for Tete
since he carried his stomach before him as did a Tango
teacher of mine calling it his tango tummy. That's cheating!
This - i think everybody agrees that the classic gavito images are basically show moves / special effects that don't have a lot to do with baseline technique (and if you watch their walk and giros they basically have no leaning when dancing and not posing). To me currently what is real is that i dance fully centered and parallel - toes to toes+some safety margin, and enough force/connection/lean/whatever to have continuous chest-to-chest contact and not requiring the arms as a information channel. (i personally don't like "horizontal force" (and "lean" even less) because i think that both dancers force should be _upward_ and a follower hanging on me is basically the opposite of what i am looking for. I don't think i like the "trust fall" imagery - i can get my chest one or two inches ahead of my toes and keep my own balance just fine, it requires just a somewhat different organization when not collaborating with a partner.
The way people look outwards has in my experience very little information on how they have their bodies organized - i have danced with followers who "looked like apilado dancers", and how their dance worked internally ran the whole range from forward presence to not using the chest at all to pulling on me down and outward.
In my opinion the way to figure out what peoples baseline technique is is to do a giros - bad giros work the best
- and see how they organize themselves when keeping the couples geometry is no longer straightforward.There's no pain either way. I tried both, but remaining straight at the hips is just what feels more natural for my body. I also prefer it aesthetically anyway, so there's no reason to change.
I use "force" of course in the strictly physics sense. If I was teaching someone I'd use some other word like "presence" to avoid misinterpretation.
I always assumed the Gavito photos were stationary volcadas.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Because she is wearing flats not heels (probably because she's taller than Vidort).