The top 5 reasons a woman wants to dance with a specific man

DL

Well-Known Member
Or him repeating the move over and over in the hopes that she'll eventually get it, even though she's clearly frustrated about it.
Then again, I've seen DF ladies say that they wish leaders would provide another chance if a step doesn't turn out as planned. It's hard to know in the moment what case applies.

Maybe its a question for a new thread, but don't leaders sometimes complain about followers who seem more interested in showing off than dancing or connecting with him?
I suspect not as much, and that here we're seeing an interesting difference between male/female roles in dancing. It's the lady's JOB to make each step look as impressive as can be. The more she shows off (so long as she is still following), the better.

But yet then again, perhaps that's not as true in AT as in ballroom, in which case of course I'll defer.
 
Maybe its a question for a new thread, but don't leaders sometimes complain about followers who seem more interested in showing off than dancing or connecting with him? I assume there's some way to tell from the other side that the partner is focusing on herself or the "audience" rather than him because I've read that complaint here on the forum.
Yes, and could be quite instructonally specific about what is technically unworkable about it.

But more generally and importantly it amounts to an attitude of being uninterested in partner dancing, but instead of trying to use the material associated with partner dances as performance dance choreography.

I wouldn't for a minute consider women the only culprits.
 

DL

Well-Known Member
Hmm, maybe my "(so long as she is still following)" deserved more than parenthetical mention. Umm, but I'll leave that to Chris. :)
 

wooh

Well-Known Member
Then again, I've seen DF ladies say that they wish leaders would provide another chance if a step doesn't turn out as planned. It's hard to know in the moment what case applies.
And thus why she said "over and over." If it doesn't work, try it again. If it still doesn't work, there's no need to belabor the point.

As for "testing." There are guys that slowly try to find where it's comfortable for you both. Then there are guys that see it as a challenge to find something you can't follow. Like if they can, then they "win," as if it's some sort of competition. Ladies can tell the difference. If you as a lead can't tell the difference, then you're probably doing the latter.
 

DL

Well-Known Member
And thus why she said "over and over." If it doesn't work, try it again. If it still doesn't work, there's no need to belabor the point.

As for "testing." There are guys that slowly try to find where it's comfortable for you both. Then there are guys that see it as a challenge to find something you can't follow. Like if they can, then they "win," as if it's some sort of competition. Ladies can tell the difference. If you as a lead can't tell the difference, then you're probably doing the latter.
Sometimes I go so far as to ask permission to try to lead a step again. In the absence of feedback, I might do this once, then claim a need on my part to go back to the classroom for that step, and do my best to excise it from my repertoire for the remainder of the dance.

Sometimes a follower insists verbally that she's not following a step well, and apologizes. Maybe she wants to give it another try? Sometimes we do, and the reaction is a repeat. Now what?

Sometimes I ask for feedback and what I get is ambiguous.

Sometimes the step in question is both relatively basic and also the primary step I use to navigate some common particular floorcraft situation.

I hope you'll stop short of actually accusing me of trying to "defeat" followers, and perhaps even acknowledge my point that it's not always trivial to figure out what step to lead next.

Actually, sometimes that's tough even with a follower who handles with ease even substandard leads for every step in a leader's repertoire. It's tougher still when the leader tries to take specific characteristics of the follower into account. I try, but I don't think I always get it right.

Oh, look, another case where she says, "he's a jerk," and he says, "if only I were better at this."
 

wooh

Well-Known Member
You know, most people can tell when someone else is making an honest effort. To be nice, to dance as well as they can, to be friendly and accomodating to other people.
Now unless you're living in an area where EVERYONE has Asperger's, if you're making an effort, people will know it.
It's not THAT complicated. Try to be nice. Try to dance as well as you can. Try to not be an arse.
It's really not that complicated. If you're having trouble with that, then perhaps you need to find a class on having good manners in your area.
 

DL

Well-Known Member
You know, most people can tell when someone else is making an honest effort. To be nice, to dance as well as they can, to be friendly and accomodating to other people.
Now unless you're living in an area where EVERYONE has Asperger's, if you're making an effort, people will know it.
It's not THAT complicated. Try to be nice. Try to dance as well as you can. Try to not be an arse.
It's really not that complicated. If you're having trouble with that, then perhaps you need to find a class on having good manners in your area.
Now I'm getting a bit angry, and perhaps this is ill-advised but:


(yes, it was all ill-advised)


Now I'm done here.
 
You know, most people can tell when someone else is making an honest effort. To be nice, to dance as well as they can, to be friendly and accomodating to other people.
Now unless you're living in an area where EVERYONE has Asperger's, if you're making an effort, people will know it.
It's not THAT complicated. Try to be nice. Try to dance as well as you can. Try to not be an arse.
It's really not that complicated. If you're having trouble with that, then perhaps you need to find a class on having good manners in your area.
You might be interested to look back up the thread and see what happened when I suggested one could tell if another was making an effort on behalf of their partner of the moment.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
But being asked to accomodate is not the primary complaint... the issue is that we are expected to accommodate, and then we are blamed or expected to take all the responsibility for when things don't go as planned!
this is the crew's job in sailing- to take the blame when things go wrong- didnt realise it had permeated tango...

when dancing with beginners I skate over fumbles unless they want to stop and sort out what when wrong ( in a practica, not a milonga) and will say its my fault even if its not or sometimes no-ones..
 

Joe

Well-Known Member
As for "testing." There are guys that slowly try to find where it's comfortable for you both. Then there are guys that see it as a challenge to find something you can't follow. Like if they can, then they "win," as if it's some sort of competition. Ladies can tell the difference. If you as a lead can't tell the difference, then you're probably doing the latter.
I don't know about all that. Sometimes you're just so used to leading advanced material that it's hard to simplify things when you're not dancing with someone who's capable of following that material.
 

fascination

Site Moderator
Staff member
perhaps joe...but I doubt it...I think most men, when percieving that a lady is struggling with advanced moves, actually have the courtesy to tone it down...but, some men; A) don't percieve it b)could if they wished to but are too self-absorbed c)get a charge out of it and think they are being impressive
 

fascination

Site Moderator
Staff member
Sometimes I go so far as to ask permission to try to lead a step again. In the absence of feedback, I might do this once, then claim a need on my part to go back to the classroom for that step, and do my best to excise it from my repertoire for the remainder of the dance.

Sometimes a follower insists verbally that she's not following a step well, and apologizes. Maybe she wants to give it another try? Sometimes we do, and the reaction is a repeat. Now what?

Sometimes I ask for feedback and what I get is ambiguous.

Sometimes the step in question is both relatively basic and also the primary step I use to navigate some common particular floorcraft situation.

I hope you'll stop short of actually accusing me of trying to "defeat" followers, and perhaps even acknowledge my point that it's not always trivial to figure out what step to lead next.

Actually, sometimes that's tough even with a follower who handles with ease even substandard leads for every step in a leader's repertoire. It's tougher still when the leader tries to take specific characteristics of the follower into account. I try, but I don't think I always get it right.

Oh, look, another case where she says, "he's a jerk," and he says, "if only I were better at this."
DL...I agree...sometimes it is messy...but generally speaking I think it is very rare when a man who actually struggles with the nuances as you do and cares that much ends up being percieved as the kind of person most women here are talking about and prefer not to dance with...granted sometimes it is messy and there are misunderstandings but by and large, women are perceptive and don't mistake that kind of man for the one they are describing here...(you are definately not that type :))
 

fascination

Site Moderator
Staff member
I can be candid to the point of being a total witch. (Which some here have experienced!) But, when I don't believe a situation calls for total unforgiving honesty, then I can generally find something nice to say that isn't a lie.
I have had dances that were TOTAL disasters. A smile and a thank you for asking, it isn't a lie, no matter how miserable I may have been through the dance. I genuinely appreciate someone making the effort to ask me, even if they are a horrible dancer that glares at me the whole time and runs me into people.
You don't have to say, "That was the most wonderful dance ever in the history of dancing!" Just smile and thank the woman.
If that is too much to ask, then well, it's not a problem of dancing skills, it's a problem of personal interaction skills.
exactly
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
I don't know about all that. Sometimes you're just so used to leading advanced material that it's hard to simplify things when you're not dancing with someone who's capable of following that material.
eek I find this happens with valzy turns; followers even experienced ones get stumped by a dynamic turn; so i expect them to follow and the unfamiliarity unhinges them...
 

CANI

Active Member
I hope you'll stop short of actually accusing me of trying to "defeat" followers, and perhaps even acknowledge my point that it's not always trivial to figure out what step to lead next.
+1
I don't know about all that. Sometimes you're just so used to leading advanced material that it's hard to simplify things when you're not dancing with someone who's capable of following that material.
+1

I am not discounting that wooh and danceronice, in their social dance circles, may happen to dance with leaders who, strangely, set out to test followers and to win when they don't follow, however, IMO, the vast majority of the cases fall into what DL and Joe are saying.

And for my part, I've been out social dancing a lot -- at the studio where I take lessons and before that opened at several different studios -- dancing every Friday, Saturday and Sunday on a weekend, for three hours each at a time -- and I have never danced with a leader who was testing me nor trying to win by doing something I couldn't follow. Never once.
 

fascination

Site Moderator
Staff member
I have danced with plenty of men whose sole objective was to either impress me, show off to the crowd or see if I could follow at a level that was clearly beyond my scope irrespective of the obviousness of that and the unpleasantness of it...those who have not had that experience are fortunate, but I would maintain, are also rare.
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
here's the thing ...just because one puts forth an effort one doesn't feel doesn't mean it's fake...sometimes our affections take a break and the most loving noble thing one can do is to be kind and loving in the absence of feeling it...it isn't being fake, it is being selfless and transcendent...and, IMO, it is a sad day when people think an important part of authenticity is being candid about whatever affect they are currently lacking...emotions come and go...character is a decision...if that is being fake I gladly claim it...but frankly, I seek to be far better than the lowest feelings I experience
Methinks it goes hand-in-hand with charity being offensive and humility no longer being a virtue...
 

fascination

Site Moderator
Staff member
yep...you don't want to get me on that soap box...or onto the reasons why I think it has happened...at least not on this thread...perhaps I will note an observation or two on enlightenment when I have the time
 

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