The top 5 reasons a woman wants to dance with a specific man

DL

Well-Known Member
YOU said so!

In post 213 which I quoted.. she laments the gent putting the follow through her paces to see if he could use her to show off! I'm responding to that! So yes, I assumed from YOUR statement that it was a leader putting the follower through her paces. HOw is that now a subjective characterization on MY part?

SHeesh!
The dance doesn't go well. One follower says, "he's using me to show off". Another says, "oh well, he tried hard."

Same (earnest) guy who cares what the dance is like for his partner, two different ladies. If only he'd been more skilled, probably the dance would have gone well for both of them, and they both would have been happy.

Apologies for not quoting all the relevant parts of the thread directly in my post.
 

DL

Well-Known Member
I've now come to the conclusion that some people are commenting on this thread just to jerk me around and enjoy watching the result. I hope you're having a good time. I also hope you won't mind if I don't reply to you anymore.
If you include me in "some people", honestly, I'm not. I'm really trying to contribute my own personal experience (see, again, post 210).

Of course I don't agree with the assertion/implication made earlier that guys are obtuse because they can't figure out that women just don't want them to be arses. Is there an implication here that I'm obtuse, or an arse? Does that seem fair?

"Don't be an arse" isn't just "don't complain at me," or the like, for all women. It might be, "don't try to put me through my paces."

But where a lady concludes, "he's trying to put me through my paces in order to show off," the gent might be thinking, "that didn't work... maybe I'll try... dangit, not there either ... I know... whoops, that guy almost hit me... whoa, she didn't end up where I expected... drat that dance is over, it didn't go like I'd hoped."

So how did the woman conclude the guy was trying to put her through her paces? Well, the lead/follow didn't work out, and maybe she figures he ought to have led differently. From his perspective, he was well-intentioned and did his best, and it wasn't good enough.
 
I'm not seeing why trying hard has to involve challenging or show off material, especially if brief experiments in that direction didn't come off in a way that invites more.
 

wooh

Well-Known Member
here's the thing ...just because one puts forth an effort one doesn't feel doesn't mean it's fake...sometimes our affections take a break and the most loving noble thing one can do is to be kind and loving in the absence of feeling it...it isn't being fake, it is being selfless and transcendent...and, IMO, it is a sad day when people think an important part of authenticity is being candid about whatever affect they are currently lacking...emotions come and go...character is a decision...if that is being fake I gladly claim it...but frankly, I seek to be far better than the lowest feelings I experience
I can be candid to the point of being a total witch. (Which some here have experienced!) But, when I don't believe a situation calls for total unforgiving honesty, then I can generally find something nice to say that isn't a lie.
I have had dances that were TOTAL disasters. A smile and a thank you for asking, it isn't a lie, no matter how miserable I may have been through the dance. I genuinely appreciate someone making the effort to ask me, even if they are a horrible dancer that glares at me the whole time and runs me into people.
You don't have to say, "That was the most wonderful dance ever in the history of dancing!" Just smile and thank the woman.
If that is too much to ask, then well, it's not a problem of dancing skills, it's a problem of personal interaction skills.
 

DL

Well-Known Member
I'm not seeing why trying hard has to involve challenging or show off material, especially if brief experiments in that direction didn't come off in a way that invites more.
"challenging" "show off" -- also subjective

Maybe just having a big frame seems show-offy. Maybe adding a couple of chasses to the right in a waltz (perhaps in an effort to avoid a collision) seems challenging. Heck, maybe just left-box/right-box seems challenging, because the guy takes big steps (a habit I have, and try to attenuate -- not always successfully -- for some followers).

(Apologies for the dip into ballroom examples in an AT forum.)
 

CANI

Active Member
[whispers...]

zoops, sounds like you're simply looking for a real gentleman.

[yep, that ol' can of worms...]

m
Tell us more...what would this real gentleman be like? I think everything DL is describing falls into what I would equate with a real gentleman. Do you see the gentleman as having different characteristics?
 
I'll be the first to admit sometimes the partner gets forgotten when others are making the floor a challenging place to be. This soon lead to a sometimes habit of quickly evaluating the floorcraft situation when extending or accepting invites...
 

madmaximus

Well-Known Member
Tell us more...what would this real gentleman be like? I think everything DL is describing falls into what I would equate with a real gentleman. Do you see the gentleman as having different characteristics?
We had a lively discussion about this some years back (two threads at the least--replete with feisty perspectives about what a lady is about and huffy repartee about what is a gentleman (with mistaken notions about gentry, money, and anachronistic role-playing included)).

IMO, however--and to respond to your query, a gentleman in this regard is one who has character enough to be gracious and make his company the evening's memorable one for the lady (technical prowess notwithstanding--on either side of the hold--but rather because of a certain kind grace--and I speak not of the dance kind).






m
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
If you include me in "some people", honestly, I'm not. I'm really trying to contribute my own personal experience (see, again, post 210).
I edited my post because I realized it was a knee-jerk reaction. It's probably too late for you to edit yours to remove the quote, so that's the price I pay for my own behavior... lesson learned.

It seemed to me at first that you said something about a situation (the gent put the lady through her paces to show off)

I questioned why you used that particular example, to which you replied that I was assuming that it was the leader putting the follower through the paces (your wording "how do you know it was the leader testing the follower" seemed to imply that it might have been the other way around and that I was making an assumption). Given that I was going by what you said about who was doing the testing, can you understand why I reacted negatively to that reply?

Anyway.. I think what you were trying to say was not that the follower might have been testing the leader, but that her reaction about being tested at all was subjective. That someone else might not have felt "put through my paces".

I, on the other hand assumed her assessment of her own situation was valid (since I have nothing else to go on) and figured that if I HAD felt that way, she and I would be in agreement that it was annoying.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.
 

DL

Well-Known Member
I'll be the first to admit sometimes the partner gets forgotten when others are making the floor a challenging place to be.
Well, "you cad!" (I don't mean that, of course.)

This soon lead to a sometimes habit of quickly evaluating the floorcraft situation when extending or accepting invites...
It's an aside but: Aha, another reason everybody should be highly tolerant of rejections.
 
[whispers...]

zoops, sounds like you're simply looking for a real gentleman.

[yep, that ol' can of worms...]

Applause to the man with the superhero avatar!:rocker:

Most of the other posts seem like some kind of Mars-Venus disconnect. :p

(many of the men): define a desirable leader as one who is technically advanced and competent and believe it is not possible to create a happy reaction in the follower otherwise

(many of the women): define a desirable leader as one who is kind, friendly, a gentleman, makes the follower feel appreciated and respected, advanced technique not mandatory, it's okay to keep steps safe and simple (keep in mind we're talking AT where it's perfectly acceptable to do nothing but walking)

I feel your pain Zoops.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
So how did the woman conclude the guy was trying to put her through her paces? Well, the lead/follow didn't work out, and maybe she figures he ought to have led differently. From his perspective, he was well-intentioned and did his best, and it wasn't good enough.
This is a valid question, and I wish I had a concrete answer. I think many followers would tell you that they "just know" when a leader is doing this sort of testing. (the same way women "just know" that their friend is really upset or they "just know" that so-and-so are seeing each other despite soandso trying to hide it, and how we know a zillion other things that it often turns out we were right about)

Aside from the obvious verbal feedback, It can take the form of exasperated noises when she doesn't follow the move. Or him repeating the move over and over in the hopes that she'll eventually get it, even though she's clearly frustrated about it. Somehow, we can tell when he's not dancing with us, but dancing with himself, the steps he wants to do, or to impress others. Sure, we may be wrong sometimes, but frequently, that same leader that we got this sort of impression from will eventually confirm it with the sorts of verbal feedback that make his attitude clear. Or maybe we'll hear it in the sorts of things he says about OTHERS.

Maybe its a question for a new thread, but don't leaders sometimes complain about followers who seem more interested in showing off than dancing/connecting with him? I assume there's some way to tell from the other side that the partner is focusing on herself or the "audience" rather than him because I've read that complaint here on the forum.

Likewise, there are ways we can tell when the man is doing this. I just can't articulate them well at the moment because I'm getting pretty burned out on the whole discussion. I'll try to think about it from real life examples and my own experiences and get back to you.
 

DL

Well-Known Member
(many of the men): define a desirable leader as one who is technically advanced and competent and believe it is not possible to create a happy reaction in the follower otherwise
I have tried to be careful to steer clear of saying this. But I do think that shortage of technique and shortage of good intention sometimes seem easy to confuse from a follower's perspective, based on feedback I've gotten from followers.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
a gentleman in this regard is one who has character enough to be gracious and make his company the evening's memorable one for the lady (technical prowess notwithstanding--on either side of the hold--but rather because of a certain kind grace--
Sigh... where were you 12 pages ago?
 

CANI

Active Member
IMO, however--and to respond to your query, a gentleman in this regard is one who has character enough to be gracious and make his company the evening's memorable one for the lady (technical prowess notwithstanding--on either side of the hold--but rather because of a certain kind grace--and I speak not of the dance kind).

m
:D I agree with this definition -- and we are fortunate to have so many men in dance -- DF-ers and real-lifers who fall under this definition.

Of course, now I'm dying to know your definition of a real lady...and wondering if I will know any of those! Alas...OT...;)
 

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