Tips for leaders with mediocre dissociation?

[Captain Jep]

Drives me absolutely NUTS! I hate it when she takes off in some predetermined/prescribed QQS rhythm w/o regard for what I intended.

I find most often that its really my fault. If the music is going QQS, and I start the motion off on the wrong beat, then I can hardly blame the follower if they are being more musical than I am, can I?

On another subject, I've always been taught that you should be able to come out of the molinete at any point. I still dont understand how this meshes in with the follower giving impetus to the turn. Once you're on the turn do you have to wait for a slow beat before coming out of it?

 

[Zoopsia59]

Drives me absolutely NUTS! I hate it when she takes off in some predetermined/prescribed QQS rhythm w/o regard for what I intended..

What I hate as a follower is when the leader pulls me around by just rotating quickly without any regard for my ability to take steps that size in that time (or ANY size in that time).

Typically when this happens I have to do all quicks that are even quicker than the quicks in the music and take large steps while doing it. When I say "pulled" around, that's exactly what happens. And if the leader wants to deliberately do all quicks and not let the follower do her S,Q,Q,S, he better be prepared for less rotation so she can take smaller steps.

In my experience, I can tell when a leader wants to interrupt the sequence or give it a different rhythm by SLOWING it from the S,Q,Q,S. But leaders who want to speed it up seem to equate making it faster with making it bigger and I feel like I'm being slung around rather than given the opportunity to get my feet on the ground! I might as well just hang on while he lifts me and spins. Of course, most of the time when this happens, I don't they they INTEND anything.. they just don't know how to lead a molinete.

You can't make a full 360 on one side-back-side-front sequence and do it all on quicks! At least not with the average follower. Why DO so many people think they need to get all the way back to where they started on a single molinete? Is it that chair exercise that creates this mistaken impression?

BTW - I rarely use the amount of "force" I use with my partner to propell the leader around with anyone else. He really WANTS me to take over and keep going, setting the rhythm myself, until he gets us out of it. He stays "passive" until he wants to lead something else.

I realize that not every leader operates on that theory of how the move is done, but unfortunately, some leaders think that they actually have to propell the follower around, not just lead the rhythm and pattern.

 

[Zoopsia59]

On another subject, I've always been taught that you should be able to come out of the molinete at any point. I still dont understand how this meshes in with the follower giving impetus to the turn. Once you're on the turn do you have to wait for a slow beat before coming out of it?

Well this is the tricky part, and I'm going to admit that I can't quite do it myself as a leader when the music is playing. The follower provides the energy to go around because (as I stated somewhere upthread) if the leader is just being pivoted on one foot, he can't really do anything that MAKES her go around. The maypole can't make the ribbons wrap around it. (see previous post for what it feels like to have the leader force it!) I'm sure there are steps you do where the follower is planted and you pivot her around. You don't expect her to actually move herself when spinning on one foot.

The difference is that when you plant the follower, you are leading and providing the momemtum. When she is doing the M. around you, you are leading but SHE is providing the momentum. So what he does is indicate that she should keep going in the sequence by how he uses his upper body.

You know how to use your body to start the sequence with either the back or the front ocho, correct? (after the initiating side step) So you already know to use your body to indicate her steps. Most likely you are still doing the indicators during the sequence. But if you straighten out and stop your upper body rotation, she SHOULD realize that she's supposed to stop going around you. After all, she starts going around you because you turned your upper body and she has to step to stay in front of you. So if you aren't rotated anymore, there's no need for her to step to stay in front of you. Or if you change direction, she has to change with you.

I thin if you practice this slowly without music driving a rhythm and lead each step as an individual step (stopping between them) you'll start to see the possibilities and how you would use your body to make the changes. Then eventually you can do it with music and with her providing energy for the rotation. (if she's even a follower who know to provide some!)

But maybe I should let the leaders weigh in before you take my advice to heart.

 

[Captain Jep]

Perhaps I should have been clearer. If the follower "takes over" the impetus, then for a while they are "taking over" the turn. And the turn then becomes a pattern - something that should be completed. How can I take back the initiative in this situation?

(You're right though. Many followers dont really give impetus to a molinete. In that case as a leader I will retain the control and so be able to exit at any point)

 

[Zoopsia59]

Perhaps I should have been clearer. If the follower "takes over" the impetus, then for a while they are "taking over" the turn. And the turn then becomes a pattern - something that should be completed. How can I take back the initiative in this situation?

(You're right though. Many followers dont really give impetus to a molinete. In that case as a leader I will retain the control and so be able to exit at any point)

No, you were clear, and I still think my suggestion will work, but I'll talk to my partner about it. She provides the impetus to make the 2 of you go around based on the fact that you led it with your body. She is providing energy to accomplish the move you indicated should be done because you can't really provide it if you are just pivoting.

If you change your upper body, she should back off on her energy because she feels a different lead for a different move to be done. Her momentum is in her lower body taking the steps. Her upper body responding to yours tells her what steps to take. Even while providing the energy, she shouldn't be ignoring your indications (leads) given by your body.

It's not THAT different from what she always does in, say, an open embrace ocho if you stand still... she receives info from your upper body and moves her own lower body accordingly. In this case however, she is moving you too, but she's still doing the move that YOU led.

I don't want to start the old arguement about whether the leader "moves" the follower normally or the follower moves herself. But I think you get what I'm trying to explain. She does whatever moving of herself you want to admit she always does, based on your lead, PLUS moving you (and obviously herself completely). Its still all based on your upper body lead though.

Caveat:
In practice, it actually doesn't work as well as in theory because it goes by so fast. If she's used to leaders who don't ever interrupt the pattern once she gets going, its going to be harder to stop her than if she's had that experience. Even if she doesn't really "take over", its hard to interrupt the pattern just because we are so accustomed to it being a pattern, not individual steps. I would imagine that even followers that don't take over or provide much energy still anticipate that they will be completing the sequence. So you can't be wishy washy or subtle. That's why I think practicing it slowly without music and really understanding the lead for each step will help you do something different for desired effect.

 

[dchester]

I find most often that its really my fault. If the music is going QQS, and I start the motion off on the wrong beat, then I can hardly blame the follower if they are being more musical than I am, can I?

On another subject, I've always been taught that you should be able to come out of the molinete at any point. I still dont understand how this meshes in with the follower giving impetus to the turn. Once you're on the turn do you have to wait for a slow beat before coming out of it?

I lead a slow step, rather than waiting for something. Basically, the step before coming out, is the key for coming out cleanly.

 

[Captain Jep]

Thanks for the suggestions. I have an extremely musical follower in mind to practise with, and I'll work on this with her. I probably need to focus more on what exactly is happening in the turn too.

 

[dchester]

I realize that not every leader operates on that theory of how the move is done, but unfortunately, some leaders think that they actually have to propell the follower around, not just lead the rhythm and pattern.

That's because with some followers, you do have to propel them around. I'm not saying either is good or bad, just different. For me, the main thing for a follower is to have some consistency (or predictability) in how she does whatever. Then I can adapt, but if I'm never sure what she is going to do, then I have to either simplify things, or sometimes lead with a more rigid frame.

 

[Zoopsia59]

That's because with some followers, you do have to propel them around. I'm not saying either is good or bad, just different. For me, the main thing for a follower is to have some consistency (or predictability) in how she does whatever. Then I can adapt, but if I'm never sure what she is going to do, then I have to either simplify things, or sometimes lead with a more rigid frame.

Perhaps propel wasn't a good word... I meant push, pull, drag or force MORE than you would do in any other step you led. Maybe there are some followers who follow other things and just don't move when a molinete is led , but there are leaders who use a reasonable amount of energy for the rest of their leads and then go into overdrive for some reason on the Molinete. That's what I was talking about.

If anything, the leader should need to provide LESS energy for a M. than he uses for other steps, not MORE. :friend:

 

[dchester]

Perhaps propel wasn't a good word... I meant push, pull, drag or force MORE than you would do in any other step you led. Maybe there are some followers who follow other things and just don't move when a molinete is led , but there are leaders who use a reasonable amount of energy for the rest of their leads and then go into overdrive for some reason on the Molinete. That's what I was talking about.

If anything, the leader should need to provide LESS energy for a M. than he uses for other steps, not MORE. :friend:

I just do whatever it takes (unless I can't figure out what it takes). I do prefer to do the molinette by pivoting on one foot, which prevents me from using much force (other than maybe the first step). One problem I do have is when the new/next follower is radically different from the prior follower. It can take half the first song for me to get in sync with her, and she might have already decided I suck by then.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I find most often that its really my fault. If the music is going QQS, and I start the motion off on the wrong beat, then I can hardly blame the follower if they are being more musical than I am, can I?

From one point of view, I guess, in theory, it shouldn't matter - as long as the follower's rotational speed is constant, it doesn't matter. On the other hand, the leader should be sort-of leading every step, even in a giro.

So. yes, it's your fault.

On another subject, I've always been taught that you should be able to come out of the molinete at any point.

Sounds reasonable.

I still dont understand how this meshes in with the follower giving impetus to the turn.

Me neither - but if the follower's giving impetus, is that not like leading? So I guess the answer is "it's tricky". I think I can do it. I'm not so sure I can explain how I can do it...

 

[Zoopsia59]

IOne problem I do have is when the new/next follower is radically different from the prior follower. It can take half the first song for me to get in sync with her, and she might have already decided I suck by then.

If you are in sync 1/2 way through the first song, you're doing better than ME! It takes me all of the first song to shake off the previous leader's effect and sync up to the next leader even when the next one is someone I'm very familiar with.

I'm hoping that this will improve as the years go by and that it just takes time. Maybe its what separates the good followers from the really great followers? Or maybe I should have gotten better about this by now, and I just never will ? Or maybe I'm not as good as I think I am?

Don't worry, if we aren't sync'ed by the middle of tune 1, I won't be blaming you...

Unless of course, you really DO suck. :friend:

 

[Zoopsia59]

Me neither - but if the follower's giving impetus, is that not like leading? So I guess the answer is "it's tricky". I think I can do it. I'm not so sure I can explain how I can do it...

Well, as I said... I speaking in theory because I can't actually lead it (but pretty sure I've been led in it) the follower only gives energy and momentum to a step you told her to take.

Just like any other step except she's giving it more energy than normal because you can't provide any yourself. But its still what you TOLD her to provide energy for.

Controlling the rhythm yourself while she's providing the energy during a standard sequence might be pretty hard (but would you even be trying to do that if you're pivoting on one foot?) but interrupting the sequence for something completely different should be easier.

Theoretically....

 

[Steve Pastor]

if the follower's giving impetus, is that not like leading?

When you drive an automobile, the engine moves the car, but you are controlling it.
"Teamsters", back in the horse power days, controlled their "teams" of horses.
The exchange of energy (including the "swing" of the colgada) is an exciting possibility in AT which, sadly I think, is often not only overlooked, but frowned upon.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Oh, and has anyone else worked on "pivoting in place" by first turning your torso, then rotating you hips past where your torso moved to, then again rotating the torso past the hips, etc, all in the same direction to complete a turn in place without "stepping"?