What are the technical elements of a pleasant embrace?

[itwillhappen]

Don't the same people also travel and complain that locals at their destination don't want to dance with them?

Is tango consistent in any area? However someone behaves, whatever their goals are, in their eyes they will be able to give “good reasons” for it.
It's usually much too stressful for me not to accept that. And in the pending case "me vs. the universe" the balance of power doesn't really work either.

 

[JournalInTime]

Is tango consistent in any area?

I haven't traveled much to dance, but I've done some traveling, and I do dance a lot with tourists who show up here. My experience:

Tango is broadly similar across each major urban area. I wouldn't say 100% consistent, but I would say that you could – without much head-scratching – define a "local style" that would describe reasonably well what about 80% of dancers from that place do 80% of the time. As the majority of dancers (at least here) don't travel much more than I do, this is a result of most of them having learned from the same gang of resident teachers who circulate among the same studios, been influenced by the same visitors, and optimized their movements to get the most out of tandas with other locals.

The idea that tango is a "universal language" you can "speak" wherever you go is more mythical than actual. The existence of these "local styles" means there's a learning curve for tourists. Being someone who tries to welcome and dance with tourists, I get to hear about this. Confirmed: Our local style takes a few tandas of adaptation. I guess it's all the same "language," but there's significant divergence, sometimes to the level of, say, Haitian creole vs. French.

Both things said, tango at big festivals has settled on a sort of "tango globetrotter" style that isn't associated with a region and that can be danced everywhere . . . at least, at every festival. It's a bit like how the English spoken on air by BBC World Service personnel is a vaguely mid-Atlantic kind of English that almost nobody speaks where they live. You can spot compulsive festival-hoppers right away by how they dance, which is in a way that maximizes compatibility but somewhat lacks distinction.

Your experience may well be different if you live in a region where most dancers do travel for tango, whether because that's the only way to dance (little or no local tango) or because the urban centers are unusually close (seems to be true in Europe). But North America is a huge, drafty continent, and between people in the U.S. being unusually prone to not having passports (just 48%, up from 5% in the 1990s, compared to 70%+ since forever in Canada) and leaving their country, and people in Canada facing stupidly costly plane tickets (1.88 times European prices and 2.24 times U.S. prices), that doesn't describe my region at all.

 

[pianistamediano]

The idea that tango is a "universal language" you can "speak" wherever you go is more mythical than actual. The existence of these "local styles" means there's a learning curve for tourists. Being someone who tries to welcome and dance with tourists, I get to hear about this. Confirmed: Our local style takes a few tandas of adaptation. I guess it's all the same "language," but there's significant divergence, sometimes to the level of, say, Haitian creole vs. French.

To be linguistically accurate, I would call them dialects rather than creoles; to use the best example I know, non-Singaporeans will find actual, authentic Singlish (an English-based creole) very much incomprehensible, even if they can get past the accent. And within Singlish, there's a whole continuum and tree of dialects; the acrolect is essentially Standard Singaporean English, I tend to use a very colloquial English with words and phrases and intonation patterns from Hokkien, Cantonese, and Malay. Tamil Singaporeans for example will tend to use more Tamil words (of which I know but don't use that much, or whose meanings I can gleam from context and familiarity with Singlish in general) and probably less Chinese dialect vocabulary except those in common parlance.

Nota bene, none of them are considered the One True Dialect and anyone who tells you otherwise isn't a Singaporean.

To bring this back to tango, the differences between Standard Singaporean English and actual, proper Singlish is akin to the divergence between Villa Urquiza and "milonguero", I suppose.

I still stand by my belief that tango is a universal language, though with the caveat that there exist innumerable dialects, both regional and even intracity!

 

[ardix]

I have the impression that we stoped addressing the 'technical elements of a pleasant embrace' somewhere on the page 12 of this thread...unless I am speaking a different language and find myself in a parallel universe

 

[pianistamediano]

I have the impression that we stoped addressing the 'technical elements of a pleasant embrace' somewhere on the page 12 of this thread...unless I am speaking a different language and find myself in a parallel universe

Well... tango is a microcosm of the real world, so naturally we can drift from any one topic to any other topic within the space of a single thread

(Isn't this how conversations in real life go anyway? It's almost unnatural to stick strictly to one topic!)

 

[itwillhappen]

I have the impression that we stoped addressing the 'technical elements of a pleasant embrace' somewhere on the page 12 of this thread...unless I am speaking a different language and find myself in a parallel universe

An excellent score. The topic gets often lost already on the third page.
And the where “technical elements” and “pleasant embrace” are a contradiction in itself.

 

[Brummbaer]

I have the impression that we stoped addressing the 'technical elements of a pleasant embrace' somewhere on the page 12 of this thread...unless I am speaking a different language and find myself in a parallel universe

It's recently diversified into the technical aspects of having a selection of partners to provide a pleasant embrace. There's the option of selection when you're there, or accumulate your own and get them to take you there.

It might have meandered a bit, but it's still essentially the same topic

Probably best not to go into the criteria for choice (again)

 

[pianistamediano]

Both things said, tango at big festivals has settled on a sort of "tango globetrotter" style that isn't associated with a region and that can be danced everywhere . . . at least, at every festival. It's a bit like how the English spoken on air by BBC World Service personnel is a vaguely mid-Atlantic kind of English that almost nobody speaks where they live. You can spot compulsive festival-hoppers right away by how they dance, which is in a way that maximizes compatibility but somewhat lacks distinction.

At least in the events I've been to in Europe, it seems to have converged towards variants on a style that includes opening and closing the embrace often (or being in either state for equal amounts of time), disregard/dismissal towards other couples, more open movements in general, much less individuality, more uniformity. I'm not sure if it actually maximizes compatibility so much as it does maximise genericity (which in turn does kind of improve compatibility with a wider variety of dancers, I suppose).

It's becoming more prevalent among people my age, and in particular, I see plenty of them (both males and females) picking up the standard-issue international tango jetsetter uniforms. It makes me laugh. They've abandoned individuality for more conformity and status.

 

[Bailango]

And the where “technical elements” and “pleasant embrace” are a contradiction in itself.

no they are not. That’s a very lazy argument. Equivalent to taking a populist position.

 

[opendoor]

..when you feel, through the cheek contact, your follower smile.

Was that a technical element or already a pleasant embrace?

 

[Bailango]

Isn't it also about who you might meet?

Who I meet for what? I am not going to milongas hoping to meet a romantic interest or make interesting friends. Neither has happened yet. If it does, it would be unintended consequence.

When I go I hope to meet other dancers with whom dancing is enjoyable experience. And to avoid depressing experience.

I suppose, if you just reduce it to 'dance', then you may as well just advertise for a 'dance partner' to meet the criterion - or choose a professional 'taxi dancer'. Back to the era of 10¢-a-dance? The Encuentro is too risky as the 'less inspiring' may have moved there in their search.

If you want to reduce it to a logical conclusion in that way then yes it is more about dance. At least where I go it is not like going to a social club or social event about mixing with different people. Looking at milongas a place to meet regular friends also creates cliques.

For record I do meet tango acquaintances socially outside of milongas for social occasions. More than at milongas. Our metro area is wide spread and there could be two or three milongas with distances of 40 miles between them. I don’t have to go to milongas to do that. More than half of them I honestly don’t enjoy dancing with much. That’s okay. Neither do they go to milongas that often.

I know other people who quit tango when they don’t feel inspire. Till they are ready to dance again.

I am not an advocate of mediocrity in any sphere of life. When it comes to skill based activity I see no reason to reward those who don’t strive to get better. Being my friend or social acquaintance doesn’t give them a pass.

I usually go to milongas now to be around friends;

You are lucky if your friends also share passion or interest in tango. That’s a big assumption that people have friends they can be around with. As far as I see at local milongas half the crowd comes by themselves. Since they are regulars I know they don’t have friends at milongas either. Unless anyone you say hi to and have a shallow talk is what you mean by friends!

When I'm being honest, I'm going because the people on my list are enthusiastic and like to dance with me, not because they're super-great dancers. Over the past decade plus, I've put "dance at a high level" in the "a thing my girlfriend and I do with our coach" column and "dance with enthusiastic tanguera friends" in the "most of what happens in Real Life" column.

Would you be enthusiastic if they are mediocre dancers ? Assume you didn’t had a gf you could dance with.

Of 20-30 regular tangueras you mentioned, over how long you known them, how many of them you danced with not because it is going to be enjoyable but you willing to suffer through for sake of maintaining social cohesion, how many attend at least one milonga a week - not necessary same as you go to but any milonga, how many are at any given milonga you are at. I assume these 20-30 are those you communicate with outside of the milonga.

 

[JournalInTime]

At least in the events I've been to in Europe, it seems to have converged towards variants on a style that includes opening and closing the embrace often (or being in either state for equal amounts of time), disregard/dismissal towards other couples, more open movements in general, much less individuality, more uniformity.

I'm not sure I'd tar "opening and closing the embrace often" with the same brush – a "breathing" or "elastic" embrace is good technique however you like your tango – but the rest fits what I've observed. Specifically, people dancing bigger and more open movements (mostly because leaders seem to want to embrace with their right hand barely on the left-hand side of the follower's back rather than wrapped fully around to the follower's right-hand side, and therefore find elasticity in arm elongation rather than sliding on the back), with both dancers like upright pins with zero sharing of weight. This naturally leads to taking more space on the floor, which in turn amounts to being dismissive of other couples' right to dance. Put another way, you rarely see snuggly, small-space dance technique.

And yes, more uniformity. Very consistent use of QQS all over the place, and the overuse of ochos cortados and alteraciones from ochos, while spiral crosses, promenades on the leader's left, and other classic salon movements seem to be forgotten.

I'm not sure if it actually maximizes compatibility so much as it does maximise genericity (which in turn does kind of improve compatibility with a wider variety of dancers, I suppose).

Uniformity is about one of two things: authority ("Do it the Prescribed Way . . . or else!") or compatibility (it's the basis of replaceable parts and mass production). Since tango is famously impossible to police, the first goes out the window, leaving only the second.

It's becoming more prevalent among people my age, and in particular, I see plenty of them (both males and females) picking up the standard-issue international tango jetsetter uniforms.

Assuming you mean literal uniforms, and not uniformity of dancing: I'd be curious as to what those are! Most festival-chasers here are into buying tango shoes and clothing at every stop, so there's great variety and no uniform . . . just money on show.

 

[Bailango]

The idea that tango is a "universal language" you can "speak" wherever you go is more mythical than actual. The existence of these "local styles" means there's a learning curve for tourists. Being someone who tries to welcome and dance with tourists, I get to hear about this. Confirmed: Our local style takes a few tandas of adaptation. I guess it's all the same "language," but there's significant divergence, sometimes to the level of, say, Haitian creole vs. French.

I would say it is a “universal language” which allows you to converse with anyone as long as you keep it simple. People think “simple” means boring or uninteresting. You don’t need a large vocabulary to have an interesting conversation.

Dancing simple steps also makes dancing in different locations enjoyable and easy. I have only attended a few festivals and never been to BaAs. But I must have danced in at least 20-25 different cities across three continents. Everything from small milongas to bigger ones. Based on my experience dancing experience was enjoyable for me as well as local tangueras I danced with. If spontaneous compliments or enthusiastically asking if I will be coming to the next milonga in the town is any indication. Once I was in Vancouver many years back. I randomly asked a follower after I walked in the room not having seen her dance. I was in the room earlier and had danced a few tandas. She with 75% seriousness and 25% jokingly said “ohh I don’t know this is taking a big chance” as she agreed to dance. I replied, you don’t know unless you take the risk back with a smile. After the first song she was smiling and said oh you are a good dancer. She was a very good dancer too. After the tanda she asked me if I was an instructor or if I taught. When I was in Istanbul the leaders had very athletic style, doing a lot of giros and other steps within giros. They were good at it and technically proficient. I couldn’t tell if it was style of a particular school or Istanbul thing. I could dance my own thing and still have interesting dances.

We get a lot of visitors. Dancing with them doesn’t seem to suggest incompatibility.

 

[JournalInTime]

Who I meet for what? I am not going to milongas hoping to meet a romantic interest or make interesting friends. Neither has happened yet. If it does, it would be unintended consequence.

In the interest of full disclosure: I met my girlfriend in tango. I didn't go there looking, but that is where I met her.

I do go to milongas to make friends, though . . . I work from home and have done so for 29 years, I lost the majority of my longtime friends in my divorce, and most of my free time outside of work is filled with tango; so, it's "at the milonga or nowhere" for me, when it comes to finding friends.

At least where I go it is not like going to a social club or social event about mixing with different people.

Aha, that's different from some of the places where I dance! I frequent four places with some regularity, and they're like this:

• Like some relative's (large) living room, with sofas and quaint art. Everybody knows everybody . . . the majority are retirees, so it's their social club. "Young" people like me (merely in my mid-to-late 50s) are treated like grandchildren and even called "dear." Constant mixing.

• Like a loft with a bar. Feels vaguely clandestine, but that's calculated. Everybody mostly knows everybody. The host and hostess are very welcoming. There's a wider age group, so there's some separation by generation, but not much in the way of true cliques. Prevalent mixing.

• Like a dingy bar. Actually is somewhat clandestine (the police were there at least once). Much like the previous case, but with less gracious hosting, so less prevalent mixing. The host is of Latin American origin and so are all his pals, so there's the Spanish-speaking clique and "everybody else."

• Like a huge loft with a bar. Feels commercial. Lots of cliques. Very complicated "table geography" . . . where you sit decides everything about you, whether you're aware of this or not. Not a lot of mixing.

There are other places, of course. I don't avoid them for social reasons, but either because they're too far from my home to get to easily or because the floor is physically terrible (e.g., linoleum over concrete).

Unless anyone you say hi to and have a shallow talk is what you mean by friends!

Sounds like I've been lucky . . . I have tango friends who share drinks and meals with me outside of tango, invite me to visit their towns, introduce me to their children and grandchildren, etc.

Would you be enthusiastic if they are mediocre dancers ? Assume you didn’t had a gf you could dance with.

Sure. For me, part of the challenge is making the tanda work despite limitations. Limitations can include a so-so DJ playing so-so music, a not-so-hot floor, a far-too-hot room, me being tired or upset about stuff in my life, other dancers having bad floorcraft, and yes, all the potential partners dancing at a low level. I do my best work when I have a challenge to meet. If it's all "easy" – perfect room with a perfect floor, dancing to perfect music with perfect partners around other perfect dancers – it feels fake and unfulfilling for me.

Of 20-30 regular tangueras you mentioned, over how long you known them

Some since I started dancing 11 years ago. Most since the studio where I used to work closed 7 years ago. Nearly all since before the pandemic, call it 5 years ago. Hard to put an "average" on this, but I'd call it "8 years or so, on average."

how many of them you danced with not because it is going to be enjoyable but you willing to suffer through for sake of maintaining social cohesion

None . . . I dance with people because it's enjoyable, but enjoyment isn't strongly tied to level. It's tied to personality above all else. To avoid lower-level dances that become unenjoyable, I try to dance with those people when all the other factors aren't challenging. For instance, we recently had our not-very-regular big tango ball where everybody showed up, but I limited my partners to people adept at small-spaces dancing with all feet on the floor.

how many attend at least one milonga a week - not necessary same as you go to but any milonga

All attend at least a couple of milongas a week. Most manage 3-5 per week, like I do; some consider my 3-5 per week "light," and aim for 7 per week (i.e., every evening). They are, for the most part, milongueras.

how many are at any given milonga you are at.

Call it 7-8. Last night it was 8. More than once, though, I've been at a milonga with 20 tandas, taken a couple as breaks and so danced 18 tandas, and had to skip someone and promise them a tanda next time.

I assume these 20-30 are those you communicate with outside of the milonga.

Oh, I communicate with more than that outside! There are a few I always dance with but don't stay in touch with outside, and a few I stay in touch with outside but rarely or never dance with. Part of the former is because some of them hate social media; part of the latter is because they're in, you know, Turkey or France, not Canada.

 

[pianistamediano]

Unless anyone you say hi to and have a shallow talk is what you mean by friends!

We actually talk a lot.