ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Often a trap. Proceed with caution.
Why some women are not asked to dance
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Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
Tangogal, I'm sensing Tangst. It is sad men can be shallow, and that more men aren't interested in dance. I think men can be more nuanced than your posts imply, and realizing there can be other motivations can help one feel better about what is happening. I offer my opinions (worth what you paid for them!) in that spirit. Also, I realize we are all different, that is part of what makes the world a great place. What is fun for me might not be for you, and vice versa.
First, I'll agree! There are certainly men who match your posts 100%. On the flip side, my observations are there are many with empathetic and big picture motivations, too.
Another factor: When I do car racing, it is an especially good feeling to beat cars with double the horsepower and 10x the cost of my car. I know it was my driver's skill, and not the car in that case. Likewise, in Tango if I get that super good instructor lady to do a step, I don't know I did things well. She might be good enough she interpreted what I wanted but did not do the steps I led. If I get a beginner to do something neat, it is more likely I led it correctly -- I feel more pride in the accomplishment then.
Another random thought: What about attending beginner's classes? My first Tango magic moment was with an experienced lady in my beginner's class. I was thinking "Wow, so this is how dance is supposed to go!" That even broke through my Tango Dystopia of that time! Make friends with some of those beginner men, show them the magic, encourage them to go to milongas, get dances -- seems logical to me -- teachers' aides do exactly this (and are often popular and very good dancers, despite not being young and pretty).
First, I'll agree! There are certainly men who match your posts 100%. On the flip side, my observations are there are many with empathetic and big picture motivations, too.
While I'm sure that is true in some cases, believe it or not many men are intimidated by highly skilled older tangueras. You ask an older, more experienced lady to dance. It is obvious her "thanks" is polite, but not really heart-felt, and that it was not a great tanda for her. You ask a younger, new-to-Tango lady, and she gushes about how much fun it was. Yep, you are going to be more intimidated about asking that other older lady at the same table as the first older lady. This poor guy might actually want to dance with the better dancer, but he thinks bigger picture, and gets enjoyment from the follower having a good time, so he chooses the lesser skilled, but enjoys-it-more lady to ask.
Uh... Why can't their motive be encouragement? Every club I know encourages beginners. Free first time, special beginner's class, assigned coach (common in car racing), and points for existing members to bring in new people. There are people with a teacher's spirit who truly enjoy seeing the "aha!" moment when a student gets something for the first time (I'm one of them). Trust me, if I want to show off, I grab my dear wife or the older lady who has done international Tango demos. The only "showing off" with the beginner is maybe to the beginner herself, and the friend she brought.
Another factor: When I do car racing, it is an especially good feeling to beat cars with double the horsepower and 10x the cost of my car. I know it was my driver's skill, and not the car in that case. Likewise, in Tango if I get that super good instructor lady to do a step, I don't know I did things well. She might be good enough she interpreted what I wanted but did not do the steps I led. If I get a beginner to do something neat, it is more likely I led it correctly -- I feel more pride in the accomplishment then.
My observation has been the opposite. An older lady beginner goes to her first Milonga, and doesn't get asked? She might take more classes, but she doesn't go to another Milonga. The attrition rate for beginners is very high. Of 20 people in a class, we are lucky to get 5 who go to even 1 milonga, and lucky if 2 of them are still dancing at milongas a year later.
It could be they want to, but have the honest fear she won't enjoy it, or she turns him down (or has turn him down enough times in the past). This could be reinforced by previous experience with this follower.
Nah, that's too simple and cynical a view.
- Maybe that skilled leader has a teacher's heart and really enjoys it (doesn't have to mean teaching on the floor is happening)
- Maybe that skilled leader went to classes with that follower. My observation is leaders are much more likely to go to beginner's classes than followers. One of my Tango theories is leaders benefit more by "dancing down," and followers benefit more by "dancing up." In other words, learns to lead better with a follower who is counting on his good lead for how to do something, rather than experience with many others. Followers get to try to follow and learn something they haven't done before with a better leader.
- Maybe that skilled leader enjoys the challenge of leading so well even a newer follower can follow him, and it isn't as satisfying to do that with someone he has led many times before.
- Maybe the skilled leader is trying to grow his Tango community.
- Maybe that skilled leader realizes that new face might be there only one night. I have hit this -- one night I didn't ask several new ladies, they were being asked plenty and I thought I could ask in the future. All of them were there for just one night.
- Maybe the skilled leader enjoys mistake recovery. It is fun when something "goes wrong" and I can weave it into continued dancing smoothly enough the follower thought she was following 100% correctly. Also fun is sometimes I discover new steps, or rediscover old steps, this way.
Power to those who vote with their feet! There are another roads. You might figure out how to be asked better (An older lady in our community asked my dear wife to coach her, and she gets asked much more now. She is also less shy about asking.).
Another random thought: What about attending beginner's classes? My first Tango magic moment was with an experienced lady in my beginner's class. I was thinking "Wow, so this is how dance is supposed to go!" That even broke through my Tango Dystopia of that time! Make friends with some of those beginner men, show them the magic, encourage them to go to milongas, get dances -- seems logical to me -- teachers' aides do exactly this (and are often popular and very good dancers, despite not being young and pretty).
Different strokes for different folks. Personally I think it is fun to dance with beginners (I realize I'm in the minority there). The best leaders I know (and a disproportionate number of the best followers) are teachers who dance with many newbies. Learning to "lead loudly," mistake recovery, testing with a safer step before doing the riskier step, dynamically doing a new step by taking bigger steps each time, and more can be fun and even time well spent.
raindance
Forum Master
For what it's worth, that's pretty similar to the attrition rate for beginners in any skill based activity (anything that takes an investment of time and effort to learn). Tango, scuba diving, playing a musical instrument, etc. Most activities need to draw from a pretty large pool of beginners in order to find the much smaller number of people that will stay and continue to participate (or even become addicted, LOL) for the longer term. Nothing wrong with people trying something for a bit and moving on.
Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
That's true and a good point. I didn't say it directly, but beginners are a precious resource. You want to keep them if you can.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
I feels that I have hit the brick wall at full speed. The feeling has been growing for a long time and when I now think about the future I can hardly imagine dancing at milongas. Tango itself is still alive and l like to train, watch videos, listen to music and will enjoy practicas with my training partners but ordinary milongas. No!
Tango Distance I deeply appreciate that you took time to write and post your opinions. Reading your calm reasoning was a true relief.
This forum could be a good space to compare members' own leader/follower experiences, views and to discuss, ask about situations on the pista and around.
Tango Distance I deeply appreciate that you took time to write and post your opinions. Reading your calm reasoning was a true relief.
Tangogal it has been a pleasure to read your postings; well written and most of your points I share or at least understand. There is one clear exception on how we see the leaders, their motivation and possibilities to contribute to their communities.
This forum could be a good space to compare members' own leader/follower experiences, views and to discuss, ask about situations on the pista and around.
That's true in so many areas. It's cheaper to keep good staff than to recruit replacements and train them. (Obviously, there are some you might want to be rid of, except maybe for some key talent).
However time moves on in any 'business', including teachers.
SierraAlpha
Active Member
For me that's not always true. If the teachers focus on embrace, posture, balance, basic steps, beginner followers can be great joy to dance with after very few classes. Sadly, more and more teachers take students who struggle to keep their balance even while walking and introduce them to boleos etc.
For me I quite often find relative newcomers to tango to be more enjoyable to dance with than highly experienced ones, and I'm not talking about attractiveness here. There are various reasons why this might be the case, but the main ones are that 1) there's no such thing as a typical beginner, people actually start at vastly different ability levels due to transferrable skills, and 2) experienced dancers can often develop in a way that makes them less interesting
I don't think 'enjoyment' is really a factor. Yes, sometimes it is; sometimes it isn't. Nor is it a 'duty'. We all started as 'beginners'. I'm grateful for those who danced with me as a novice, so I suppose it's a sort of 'payback', but it's a pleasure to recalibrate and adjust what can be done to skill levels. Possibly moreso than with a highly-skilled dancer where you're sometimes left feeling that you didn't do well enough.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Very much so, in my experience. As my coach says, "When somebody says they've been dancing for X years, it doesn't tell you much by itself. Maybe they did X years of lessons and work to improve, and are wonderful. Maybe they danced the same bad habits for X years and have become irreparably terrible. Maybe they went out a few times a year for X years and are eternal beginners."
Which said, the first group (years of lessons and work to improve) are just about always great to dance with. It's just that it's also the rarest group.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
When I was lurking on these forums prior to joining, then again several times after joining, and then again while searching these forums during discussions, I noted variations on "What brought you to tango?", "Why do you dance tango?", and "What are people looking for in tango?" coming up time and time again. I'd go so far as to say the topic has been discussed to death. There are dozens of distinct answers to questions like this. All are valid, but not all are equally constructive for building a tango community.
The subject of community also gets talked to death. "What is a community?" has dozens of distinct answers. Again, all are valid. In this case, though, not all lead to a sustainable community.
To get to my point: Plenty of dancers dance mainly to show off, enjoy the adoration of protégé(e)s, get to hug pretty young things, or whatever. Plenty are convinced that however selfish these motivations might be, they bring in and retain beginners. The missing step in the thought process, though, is whether that builds a durable community. I strongly doubt that it does, but nobody elected me judge and decision-maker.
My opinion (and it's only that!) is that when it comes to sustaining a community, dancing with more-advanced dancers who've done the work and who'd otherwise sit – for whatever reason – is just as important as inviting beginners. You can't do one and not the other and expect good results. Stemming the exit of existing community members who grow bored and frustrated is no less crucial than bringing in new blood. Without both, the reservoir will run dry or (possibly worse) be diluted in skill level to the point where wisdom is lost and milongas become unpleasant road rallies.
The subject of community also gets talked to death. "What is a community?" has dozens of distinct answers. Again, all are valid. In this case, though, not all lead to a sustainable community.
To get to my point: Plenty of dancers dance mainly to show off, enjoy the adoration of protégé(e)s, get to hug pretty young things, or whatever. Plenty are convinced that however selfish these motivations might be, they bring in and retain beginners. The missing step in the thought process, though, is whether that builds a durable community. I strongly doubt that it does, but nobody elected me judge and decision-maker.
My opinion (and it's only that!) is that when it comes to sustaining a community, dancing with more-advanced dancers who've done the work and who'd otherwise sit – for whatever reason – is just as important as inviting beginners. You can't do one and not the other and expect good results. Stemming the exit of existing community members who grow bored and frustrated is no less crucial than bringing in new blood. Without both, the reservoir will run dry or (possibly worse) be diluted in skill level to the point where wisdom is lost and milongas become unpleasant road rallies.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
People who get free teaching on the dance floor "like" these guys. I'm not one of those guys, but there have been several younger beginners in the past who clearly that felt if they were sufficiently adoring, they could save on the price of lessons. One in particular outright said, "Why pay for lessons if you'll dance with me?" I never danced with them again.
So there's a certain type of younger beginner who sees the exchange as "I get free lessons and he gets to hug a sweet young thing." While "like" may be too strong a word for it, it's clearly a conscious choice that wouldn't be made if anybody involved disliked the deal.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I've always been told that the brick wall is just part of the tango experience. I've hit it in my tango training more than once, I've hit it socially at least once, and I've hit it with health and energy quite a few times. The thing I've discovered is that avoiding or busting through one of those walls involves focusing on one of the other tracks where I'm not currently facing a wall:
- Improving my social links gives me the motivation to push through a training barrier, and improving stuff like diet, rest, and exercise gives me the athleticism to tackle that barrier.
- Improving my dance and energy levels gives me the confidence to push through a social barrier.
- Improving my dancing ability and social experiences gives me a psychological boost that improves my health.
Even then, if they are going to insist on dancing in rigid open hold salon, have poor musicality, or I don't connect with them on a personal level, no amount of technique can make it enjoyable to me.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I would say that style fluidity and musicality, at least, are part of doing the work to improve. I wasn't just talking about technique. In fact, most of my current coaching has nothing to do with technique and a great deal to do with expression (musicality) and borrowing between styles to accomplish expression.
But yeah . . . years and years of strict technique training in one style can be disagreeable. I just don't know if I've seen that often enough for it to matter. Usually, the people who are rigid on technique and style are that way because they stopped training and are doing the One Thing They Remember over and over again.
Personality, of course, is what it is.
