Crows are known to lie. Well, at least act deceptively.
Determining skill by watching
- Thread starter twnkltoz
- Start date
Crows are known to lie. Well, at least act deceptively.
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
squirrels too; they dont want other squirrels to find their nuts so they fake burying them...if they think they're being watched...
Dave Bailey
Active Member
So you think people are incapable of looking happy when they're not?
I disagree. Although I'd agree that lying with body language is more difficult, I don't believe it's impossible.
I honestly don't get that quote. At BTM says, he was a mime artist, his entire career was based on "lying" (pretence)... Can you explain?
bastet
Active Member
I'm always surprised when I see comments about judging a follower's quality of dancing based on how she looks with a particular leader.
I think a followers technique can be heavily influenced by how her leader is leading (or how bad he is leading). I used to think that the old saying that a follower was "only as good as her leader" was bunk and that I should be able to practice good technique regardless, but I've seen videos of me dancing with leaders of varying quality and how it changes the way my own following technique comes out. So, I've come to think of this type of comment as similar to the ones that amount to saying if a lady wears Comme Il Faut, she must have what it takes.
Leaders with at least a certain amount of skill, OTOH, seem to be a little less influenced by dancing with a follower of less skill than a similar situation where a follower is dancing with a leader of less skill.
Mostly, the only way to really find out of you like a persons dance is to actually give them a try. Some people you'll gel with, and some you won't.
I think a followers technique can be heavily influenced by how her leader is leading (or how bad he is leading). I used to think that the old saying that a follower was "only as good as her leader" was bunk and that I should be able to practice good technique regardless, but I've seen videos of me dancing with leaders of varying quality and how it changes the way my own following technique comes out. So, I've come to think of this type of comment as similar to the ones that amount to saying if a lady wears Comme Il Faut, she must have what it takes.
Leaders with at least a certain amount of skill, OTOH, seem to be a little less influenced by dancing with a follower of less skill than a similar situation where a follower is dancing with a leader of less skill.
Mostly, the only way to really find out of you like a persons dance is to actually give them a try. Some people you'll gel with, and some you won't.
Cats on the other hand don't actually lie.. they just smugly refuse to fess up to the truth.
That sounds great as a philosophical concept, but in reality, dancers lie all the time. When a dancer who is injured performs on stage as though nothing is wrong, and successfully masks the pain, is that not a "lie"? In fact, isn't the performance itself a "lie" if the dancer is playing a role totally unlike herself? Where do you draw the line between the body language conveying exactly what someone wants it to convey vs conveying some sort of immutable "truth"?
Or they're totally relaxed and the relaxed state of their facial muscles is a slight downturn of the mouth.
The whole thing about how it takes less muscles to smile is baloney.. what takes the least muscles is to let the mouth (and face) rest. People's resting expression depends on the structure of the bones and tissue, not some universal definition of emotional expression.
Ah... so crows are cats with wings. No wonder so many cats are black.
ITA with this statement (and believe I said exactly that upthread)
To determine anything by watching, you have to watch the person dancing with multiple partners. You also have to watch them as a couple, not just watch the person you are assessing. It helps immensely if you can watch the person dance with partners that you already know well and have made your own determination of as partners. In the end, though, you have to dance with the person you're trying to evaluate.
Isn't that what tango is about? Isn't that where at least SOME of the fun comes from? Dancing with partners that are totally new to you and learning who they are? Experiencing something new that opens up all kinds of unexplored possibilities to you? Maybe some of you are in large communities and constantly assessing new partners and getting hurt on the dance floor has gotten untenable.
But speaking as someone in a small community who has to travel to dance with new partners (and rarely gets to do so) I can tell you that it gets really old dancing with the same people ALL the time. It also adversely affects your progress as a dancer. Not to mention that there are likely to be only a few "favorite" partners so when they don't show up, the evening feels like a waste.
I've also discovered that my favorite partners aren't necessarily the leaders that some of my friends consider their faves, so in the long run, there's no way to really know except actually dancing with a person (and sometimes it means dancing with them on more than one occasion since everyone has off nights). Anything else is just a guess and could be way off base.
There are, of course, great performers who can make you believe almost anything, when they are on stage. Off stage, I think you can tell a lot about a person just by watching them walk down a hall. You can know something about their personality, in general, and also about their emotions at that moment. You may be mistaken, but more often than not you could be right on.
At a milonga, where people are not performing (at least they are not onstage), you can tell a lot about a person by watching them dance. You can even tell if they are performing. You can also know something about their partner.
If I see a woman glancing around the room while she dances, with every partner she has, at every milonga I see her at, I know for sure that I do not want to dance with her. If she has a look on her face as though she's reading a technical paper, and she always has that look, I can be fairly sure that she's reading the leads and trying to get them "right". That's probably not going to work well for me. If I see a woman who usually looks like she's having a pleasant dream, or savoring a flavor, or enjoying some great music, I become interested in dancing with her, because she' enjoying the moment.
Could I be mistaken? Certainly. Could I be right? Often.
bastet
Active Member
yeah- you did, and I agree for the most part.
I do look at people dancing with multiple partners (ie, people I am unfamiliar dancing with) and some it'll be easy to tell it's not going to work well and others you just have to give a try...
Coming from a small community myself, I also agree with your other statement about how your dance and dance progress is affected.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
High Skill + Music = enjoyable dance ... is not necessary true. When I'm occasionally following I want a leader who has moderate skill but musicality of same sort as mine. Then I can relax and let the music carry us on the path he chooses. A skilled leader pushes me out from the enjoyable area to the try-to-survive area and it is not worth it. When following I just want to enjoy; as a leader I am interested to challenge my comfort zone.
That's not my idea of a skilled leader.
Fine, as long as you don't push your partner out of her comfort zone.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
At a festival it is the only way to get an idea about how our one tanda future could be. To look what dance style she accepts and how comfortable she is with that leader.
Sometimes my followers tell how much they like a style of another follower: She is dancing very well! But when dancing with them later I can not agree. The difficulty here is that followers seems to trace certain skill markers which are not necessarily valid for leaders.
twnkltoz
Forum Master
There was a leader at the milonga on Saturday from out of town. I watched him to see if I could tell whether he was a good dancer or not. I first saw him with a beginner follower, and I couldn't quite tell. His steps were very simple, but he seemed to lead well--his arms were connected to his chest and she seemed to do what he wanted. His upper body was very quiet, but they were moving together and doing the simple steps in a connected way. Then I saw him dance with someone more advanced, and wow...he really turned it on! What a gentleman and a good leader--he tuned his dancing to his partner. I got to dance with him toward the end of the evening, and he started out (as a leader should with a follower new to him) with some simple basics, then tried more and more with me as I followed each thing. There were a couple of things I missed, of course, but all in all it was an extraordinarily fun and connected tanda. Yum. I gladly called it a night on that note! (also, my legs were jello after several yummy tandas.)
Then last night, I was at another milonga, and Darren Lees was there, in town becuase he performed in a show the local people put on the night before. He danced with several ladies last night of varying levels and was an absolute gentleman with each of them, leading them in what he thought they could handle and making them all look great. I was lucky enough to get a tanda with him toward the end and it rocked my world. Again, if you didn't know who he was, you could see the quality in his dance--smooth, body and arms quiet, yet he and his partner moved together, his partners looked comfortable and happy, and they didn't stumble around. Still being a Tango newbie, I don't know how well known he is around the world, but he's invited here for shows and workshops often.
As for facial expressions, with some partners I'm very relaxed and concentrating on technique or styling or whatever while trying to let my body just follow my partner. In those cases, my face tends to relax into its most neutral expression with the occasional smile if I mess up, he messes up, or we do something unusual or particularly cool, but despite my facial expression I'm having a wonderful time. Other partners require more concentration, while others yet just make me smile. I *try* to keep at least a small smile on my face so I look happy yet not goofy, but that's the least of my problems, so I hope I'm not being judged by that alone.
Then last night, I was at another milonga, and Darren Lees was there, in town becuase he performed in a show the local people put on the night before. He danced with several ladies last night of varying levels and was an absolute gentleman with each of them, leading them in what he thought they could handle and making them all look great. I was lucky enough to get a tanda with him toward the end and it rocked my world. Again, if you didn't know who he was, you could see the quality in his dance--smooth, body and arms quiet, yet he and his partner moved together, his partners looked comfortable and happy, and they didn't stumble around. Still being a Tango newbie, I don't know how well known he is around the world, but he's invited here for shows and workshops often.
As for facial expressions, with some partners I'm very relaxed and concentrating on technique or styling or whatever while trying to let my body just follow my partner. In those cases, my face tends to relax into its most neutral expression with the occasional smile if I mess up, he messes up, or we do something unusual or particularly cool, but despite my facial expression I'm having a wonderful time. Other partners require more concentration, while others yet just make me smile. I *try* to keep at least a small smile on my face so I look happy yet not goofy, but that's the least of my problems, so I hope I'm not being judged by that alone.