Englighten me, Please...

Status
Not open for further replies.
chrisjj said:
No, they are not "features". E.g. one does not call something 'dancing tango' just because dancing and tango are happening in the same room at the same time.

If this couple was actually dancing Verdermar, instead of just dancing steps while Verdermar played, things would be very different. Including probably there would be no soltadas, and hence no soltada class, and hence no such discussion here! :)
Click to expand...
We can't know what they would include if they were actually dancing.
Anyway the dancers in the video that I signaled were dancing, and they included soltada in Derecho Viejo. So we could discuss about that video...
We can say A LOT about ronda from what we see of that kind of dancing in the milongas. It is the kind that in a tight ronda will get the perpetrators pushed off the floor.
Click to expand...
There are also a lot of other things that should be avoided in a tight ronda, including ganchos, boleos, but also quick or large giros, backward steps and anything that will inevitabily cause accidents.
Are there only tight rondas in tango?
To see what I mean, have a look at the history of original peddlars of these steps, Fabian, Chicho and others, how they were rejected by the tango dancing scene in BsAs.
Click to expand...
Explain me better: they were rejected because they peddled some steps that existed before!? Is it some kind of state secret that they revealed?
 
Peaches said:
Could someone please remind me what in bloody hell this thread was about? And what are we arguing about? I hope we're not going off into another "what is AT" discussion...isn't there already a thread for that?
Click to expand...
I'll take a shot at it. Here are some (but not all) of the highlights:

  • As I recall, Mario asked about the video we've tried to discuss, and had questions like whether it was the future of tango.

  • From there, the thread morphed into discussions about things like: if you didn't like a demo at the end of a class, does it mean that the teachers are bad dancers; and also whether the USA is really the only country in the world that has bad dancers who teach.

  • Of course, as is with all threads as of late, we eventually got into a bit of a semantics discussion. This time, it was about what dancing to the music means, and whether they were simply dancing steps while the music was playing.

  • And finally we arrived at, whether it is possible to dance to Verdermar using soltadas and still call it Argentine Tango.
icon7.gif
 
chanchan said:
We can't know what they would include if they were actually dancing.
Click to expand...
If you're saying they are not actually dancing, then you don't need me to explain that they are not dancing Argentine tango.

Anyway the dancers in the video that I signaled were dancing, and they included soltada in Derecho Viejo.
Click to expand...
That is an exhibition performance done as part of a feature film 50 years ago. Hardly comparable to a instructional demonstration done as part of a dance class today.

Are there only tight rondas in tango?
Click to expand...
Well obviously not, since the dancers don't all jump into the floor simultaneously.

xplain me better: they were rejected because they peddled some steps that existed before!?
Click to expand...
Rather I think they turned to step-peddling because of their rejection. But you decide:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When we started, nobody wanted us, we were insulted because of the way we danced because we did something new with tango. A similar thing happened to Piazzolla, he said, the only crime I committed was to try to change something in tango. That was enough to make him a hate figure… and today they adore him. A similar thing happened to us. We had a different approach to tango and got shouted at.
...
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We started because we wanted to understand and learn the tango. You can do this like in the old days by practicing for 40 years. Alternatively you can understand the structure of the moves and use your head to direct your feet. We did not change the tango for the sake of change but because we could not afford to learn it for 40 years. We were convinced that dance students had to understand the structure of the dance, because they lacked the opportunity to practice. In the US tango dancers could probably go to about one milonga a month. Imagine these Americans, practising tango for only 5 hours a month, they would never gonna learn to dance tango. If you take this view as a teacher you are a liar if you advertise and sell your classes. You would have to warn them that it would take about 120 years to learn tango and more realistically suggest trying golf. We searched for a solution of this problem by speeding up the learning process. This was only possible by dissecting the dance and understanding its structure.

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.tango-on-tyne.co.uk/Salas.htm
[/FONT]
 
>> How nice it would be if more tango classes had the same
>> objective... and outcome.

> I'm guessing you've not been to a standard Ceroc night...

I have, David.

But I didn't see any tango classes there! :)
 
chrisjj said:
>> How nice it would be if more tango classes had the same
>> objective... and outcome.

> I'm guessing you've not been to a standard Ceroc night...

I have, David.

But I didn't see any tango classes there! :)
Click to expand...
We keep them secret.

What the jive scene does have, in spades, is a methodology to get people dancing quickly, in a friendly and welcoming environment, combined with a packaged and standardised teaching system. So there are probably 100K regular Modern Jivers in the UK.

But what the jive scene does not have is any mechanism for teaching people beyond move-monster level. An "advanced" class is simply one with more complex move sequences.
 
chrisjj said:
If you're saying they are not actually dancing, then you don't need me to explain that they are not dancing Argentine tango.
Click to expand...
We are not talking about what they are dancing, but what they are supposed to teach
That is an exhibition performance done as part of a feature film 50 years ago. Hardly comparable to a instructional demonstration done as part of a dance class today.
Click to expand...
Yes, hardly comparable, but anyway good to show that soltada is a quite an old move and that it fits well with Arolas' music: I hope nobody will deny that they have musicality...
Well obviously not, since the dancers don't all jump into the floor simultaneously.
Click to expand...
Right, and they don't go away simultanously. Finding a place or a time when the ronda is not so crowd and you can have all the space that you want is usually not so difficult.
Rather I think they turned to step-peddling because of their rejection. But you decide:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When we started, nobody wanted us, we were insulted because of the way we danced because we did something new with tango. A similar thing happened to Piazzolla, he said, the only crime I committed was to try to change something in tango. That was enough to make him a hate figure… and today they adore him. A similar thing happened to us. We had a different approach to tango and got shouted at.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
Click to expand...
Well, we could discuss now about what is the "something new" they did with tango. Since it is not the sacada, not the soltada, not the out of axis, not the open embrace...
I suppose it's the approach:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We closely observed the dancers and realised that the dance must rely on a basic structure. Dancers from different backgrounds could meet at a milonga and dance together, meaning that basic body language or codes is common to all the dancers. These codes were not specific steps such as the salida, for example but a body language that was not taught in classes but worked with unknown partners. We decided to decipher the codes of this body language.[/FONT]


So their approach (we cannot assume that this is the same approach used by the teachers in the video) is based on body language instead of specific steps or sequences.
Maybe it is not the traditional method to teach, but is it something different from argentine tango?
 
Maybe it is not the traditional method to teach, but is it something different from argentine tango?
Click to expand...
We are told that the "traditional" way to learn dance was for it to be handed down from older men to younger men, older women to younger women. Exactly how this was done doesn't seem to be "on the record".
There ARE books about how to dance, and although I haven't seen ones in Spanish, (and couldn't read them if I had) I'd venture to say it would be similar to what is in books written in English.
Although I by no means equate myself with the founders of nuevo, I AM interested in learning about the actual physical forces that go into the making of two people moving together as we do.
Attempts to discusss this most often result in... nothing productive from my viewpoint. Attempting to demystify something that people hold in a great and mysterious regard is not well accepted or appreciated.
Oh, and my answer is, no, it isn't something other than Argentine Tango.
 
And, on Piazzolla, there's a guy who did something new with tango. Musicolgists and anyone who wants to put in the time (OK maybe a LOT of time) can identify the new, nontraditional elements he added. The rest of us can pretty easily hear the difference.
 
Steve Pastor said:
And, on Piazzolla, there's a guy who did something new with tango. Musicolgists and anyone who wants to put in the time (OK maybe a LOT of time) can identify the new, nontraditional elements he added. The rest of us can pretty easily hear the difference.
Click to expand...
IMO, (simply stated) he added jazz (and sometimes classical) elements to his tango music.
 
chanchan said:
We are not talking about what they are dancing, but what they are supposed to teach
Click to expand...
Actually I was talking about what they are dancing.

Well, we could discuss now about what is the "something new" they did with tango. I suppose it's the approach ... based on body language instead of specific steps or sequences.
Click to expand...
One might think so from the claims Gustavo and Fabian have made, but I go from what I experienced in their workshops.... and that was exactly the same kind of sequence and step-based instruction as from the other Argentine step-peddlars - except with a bit more lecturing. I'd like to show you a video... but videoing of the lessons was always prohibited.

The something new that did apparently come from Gustavo and Fabian is the idea that just two years of dance experience (which might just get one rated past beginner in the BsAs tango scene) qualified them as tango teachers. Add to that their claim they invented the profession of tango teacher ... and you can well imagine why they were so unpopular in BsAs. And that was before everyone saw the appaling results of their "teaching"....
 
We keep them secret.
Click to expand...
And now you'll have to shoot me? :)

What the jive scene does have, in spades, is a methodology to get people dancing quickly, in a friendly and welcoming environment, combined with a packaged and standardised teaching system.
Click to expand...
Many instructors do the same in Argentine tango. Sadly in my experience e.g. of ten years of the teaching system of the dance school in my home city Cambridge (UK), and other places, the results are nothing like what we know as Argentine tango. But please do decide for yourself. See this, from nearby St Albans: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mbibSdVdeQ .
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Dance Ads

Advertise on Dance Forums Reach dancers, teachers, studios, event organizers, and dance-friendly brands. View ad options
Back
Top