Englighten me, Please...

[Dave Bailey]

The problem is the mind set of a lot of people attending "lessons", they go to collect steps and nothing the person providing the new material can do can change that.

I managed to do a 2-hour class on Sunday, with no steps at all.

(Well, there was a pivot in the last ten mins. That's all. A pivot.)

Also the St Albans thing has nothing to do with tango in cambridge and I don't really get why you put them together like that except to imply that that is what the classes look like in Cambridge and by extension dancers in the milongas who have come from the classes. You would be wrong.

I've never been to Cambridge - it's Oop North - but I've heard good things about the Cambridge scene, and the website looks informative and useful.

 

[Peaches]

Women in BsAs weren't taught to follow, period. Women don't need to be taught because the woman's role is natural. Women danced only with guys who could dance.

Perhaps there's something special in the water in BsAs, then, that makes the women there exceptional. Because...bullsh!t. Oh, sure, it's natural...in the same sense that walking is natural for men as well, and AT is just a dance based on natural walking, so...really...nobody needs teaching! (Sarcasm, in case that wasn't obvious.) But, let's see...walking backwards and in heels...not so natural. Doing it while keeping your weight forward...not so natural. Learning to keep a forward connection and pressure into your partner...not so natural. Being grounded, dancing into the floor, keeping your feet all nice and connected (never mind pretty), knowing what the lead is asking for by his body movements...none of them natural.

Teaching of women exists today due to the need for partners for guys who cannot dance

Oh, hell. I wish someone had told me that before I shelled out a bunch of money on private lessons...to be taught how to dance. Little did I know I was doing it for all the men out there. And what's this "cannot" dance nonsense? Anyone who hasn't learned a dance "cannot" dance it. That's why you have to learn. Or be taught. Or have knowledge imparted. Or whatever we want to call it.

I've seen no evidence that it was taught. Like everything else, it was learned direct - by dancing with someone who could dance.

Let's see...direct learning...dancing with someone who could dance...that sounds an awful lot like my private lessons. Dancing with someone who could dance, providing feedback as to what went wrong and what needs to be improved, explaining the concepts...sounds an awful lot like teaching to me. Or is this another one of those semantic arguments?

 

[Dave Bailey]

Perhaps there's something special in the water in BsAs, then, that makes the women there exceptional. Because...

Stop quoting my sig

 

[chrisjj]

....

 

[chrisjj]

Chris, you are on thin ice. I'm sure a lot of the Brits can guess who you are implicitly getting at

No-one needs to guess.

The comment you replied to was about the guys with "just two years of dance experience". For avoidance of doubt, I was referring to Gustavo Naviera and Fabian Salas.

You then mention Cambridge. Again for avoidance of doubt, I was referring to "the dance school in my home city Cambridge (UK)".

since they afaik are not reading and therefore have no chance to reply

Actually we cannot tell who is reading... or even who is writing in the case of people like yourself who are hiding behind pseudonyms. I have a feeling the motivation behind your comments would be a lot clearer if we actually knew who you were.

 

[dchester]

Oh, hell. I wish someone had told me that before I shelled out a bunch of money on private lessons...to be taught how to dance. Little did I know I was doing it for all the men out there.

Well let me be the first to thank you, and all the other ladies out there, who took lessons to help me out. However, I'm still not all that good yet, so maybe some of you need to put in a little extra effort.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Captain Jep]

What I am talking about Captain Jep is, as I said: "the dance school in my home city Cambridge (UK)" not the entire Cambridge tango scene. Cambridge has many other active teachers (none of which learned at the dance school) and milongas.

Well to me you are still being cryptic. I'm afraid I for one have no idea which school (or who) you're referring to. As spectator says, whoever it is, you should give it a rest.

If I was a dancer in Cambridge I would take advantage of whatever was on offer. Whatever the source. We all invent and re-invent our dancing anyway.

 

[chanchan]

Errr.... that's everyone at the start, surely?

Yes, but in the first case, the man knows that he can't dance, he knows what the follower has to perceive in order to do some move, because he did it as a follower, and he goes to practica until he can lead it.
In the second case, the man learns "his part", and expects the woman to do "her part", often he not even know what steps the woman has to do.
Nevertheless, he thinks he can dance and, if the woman won't do "her part", it is beacuse she can't dance.

 

[chrisjj]

Peaches, not long ago about half the city of Buenos Aries danced tango. They learned not in lessons from teachers but by dancing with each other. The only thing that's really different today is that many who want to learn are in cities having very few people dancing tango. That and only that is what restricts the newcomer's choice of dancers from which to learn, to those who'll do it only for money. When you get a good private lesson, the actual method of learning is the same - dancing. To know this helps understand why some girls get to learn without paying. And why some others who do pay but recognise that that they are paying to learn, not "paying to be taught" as you put it, have a much wider choice and a much easier time.

But, let's see...walking backwards and in heels...not so natural.

Agreed. I doubt any Golden Age dancer wore heels as high as those on many of the girls struggling to learn in them nowadays.

knowing what the lead is asking for by his body movements...none of them natural.

Agreed again. Good leading doesn't work through "asking by body movements". That kind of unnatural signalling is an invention of the recent class method designed to get girls to follow guys who cannot dance.

 

[bordertangoman]

more ways to skin a cat; having danced with a couple of Argentine ( and a Brazilian who liked to pass himself off as an Argentine) blokes however briefly, my experience is that they really shovel the follower about. In my experience that isnt necessary unless you want to give some energy for a colgada, others have been more subtle- pretty much creating a space for the follower to move into; very much an invitation.

 

[chrisjj]

Yes, but in the first case, the man knows that he can't dance, he knows what the follower has to perceive in order to do some move, because he did it as a follower, and he goes to practica until he can lead it.

Absolutely! Just as we all learn to speak by listening to speech. The new tango dance teaching method is like getting guys to speak a language they have never heard, with teacher showing and telling them what shapes to make with their lips.

Of guys learning to follow, Borderman here says "I dont think its a prerequisite; they have enough to learn already." but actually following is entirely a subset of what all good leaders are doing all the time anyway. Learning to follow first makes learning to lead much easier, not least because the guy can then learn in the language of the dance itself - instead of just getting the show and tell about each new move, he can actually feel what it is and how it works.

Provided of course the teacher can lead it... and here also is the best way it discover that important fact too.

Non-following guy beginners, you may very reasonably have got the idea that learning to follow is hard... if you are going by the experience of your unfortunate girl partners in class. Yes, following someone who cannot lead is hard. No, following someone who can lead is not hard. Not at all.

 

[bordertangoman]

Absolutely!

Of guys learning to follow, Borderman here says "I dont think its a prerequisite; they have enough to learn already." but actually following is entirely a subset of what all good leaders are doing all the time anyway. Learning to follow first makes learning to lead much easier, not least because the guy can then learn in the language of the dance itself - instead of just getting the show and tell about each new move, he can actually feel what it is and how it works.

.

YOU may be right; but how long would that add to a leader achieving a competent level to go on the dance floor and how many leaders would have that patience if one advocated that as a teaching method. when I taught I did my best to ensure that all my students felt what it was like to be led and to follow directly from me. I am a strong advocate that some or perhaps most people who can translate a "feeling" (something physical) into their movement will speed up their learning than merely being told and shown.

I also advocate differnt abilities learning together so you get a trickle down or feudal effect.

 

[chrisjj]

YOU may be right; but how long would that add to a leader achieving a competent level to go on the dance floor

Er, zero. My point was that it would subtract.

when I taught I did my best to ensure that all my students felt what it was like to be led and to follow directly from me. I am a strong advocate that some or perhaps most people who can translate a "feeling" (something physical) into their movement will speed up their learning than merely being told and shown.

Sounds like you are already a convert, then . Excellent!

I also advocate differnt abilities learning together so you get a trickle down or feudal effect.

Again that's good to hear.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Well to me you are still being cryptic

Me too, to be honest.

I can't even keep track of my own classes, let alone anyone else's.

(I only found out today that I'd been missing two whole students for two weeks.... )

 

[Dave Bailey]

Agreed. I doubt any Golden Age dancer wore heels as high as those on many of the girls struggling to learn in them nowadays.

OK, let's say they wore normal shoes. They're still walking backwards. That's not natural, surely?