Question to Leaders about Followers

[JournalInTime]

Wow. This is quite interesting. I though men would prefer a mystery. The less personal the better. I actually more enjoy dancing with people I hardly know. We all differ. But I am in general a very private and reserved person. Noted. Perhaps I need to put a bit more effort in social aspect of my dance.

You'd be surprised!

There's a persistent belief in our culture that there's romance in mystery and that tango is romantic, so tango dancers go around being and seeking out mysterious partners. Movies and TV shows about tango certainly perpetuate this, as does a lot of visual art.

Then there's the reality that tango is just another dance that takes years to master – much of that spent sweating in dusty studios that smell like shoes, stepping on feet and accidently kicking people. You'll look your worst before you look your best, and you'll make a ton of mistakes both in the studio and at the milonga.

Some people manage to maintain the mystique and romance through the training. Others manage to come back to it after the training. But a huge number of dancers – possibly the majority – prefer the company of dancers who know what they've been through and who forgive imperfection. In practice, that means friends or at least acquaintances.

Obviously, this will vary depending on how local you remain. For many of us, you learn to dance near where you live, and you mostly dance near where you live, so you can't avoid the people who've seen you at your worst and you can't avoid having lots of tango friends and acquaintances. Perpetual travelers are better positioned to pull off the mysterious-and-romantic act.

And certainly, tango is a social dance. You can decide not to sit or chat with friends at the milonga, not to have drinks at the tango bar with friends, not to take classes and go to festivals with friends, not to partner with friends at workshops, not to add dancers to your Facebook friends list, and all the rest. However, that runs a serious risk of getting you branded not as "mysterious" or "romantic," but rather as "snobby."

Setting all that aside, there's an implicit "What men prefer" bias here that hints that all men are super-confident about approaching random women to dance. Some are like that. Most are ordinary guys who fear rejection. Tango is a notably geeky dance compared to most styles, owing to its technical nature and mathematical music, so it attracts geeky guys. Geeky guys aren't famous for their extroversion.

 

[Brummbaer]

Wow. This is quite interesting. I though men would prefer a mystery. The less personal the better. I actually more enjoy dancing with people I hardly know. We all differ. But I am in general a very private and reserved person. Noted. Perhaps I need to put a bit more effort in social aspect of my dance.

There were a whole range of reasons for going to the milonga in BsAs - and many myths. Do you really think it's just the dance that attracted people? It's the many and varied social aspects from meeting the opposite sex, to socialising with friends, to being the 'best', 'innovative' dancer, to just enjoying an evening out, to being lonely and looking for company. Same as any social dance anywhere. We just try to make it extremely formal.

Geeky guys aren't famous for their extroversion.

I quite like the reference to the 'geeks'. Sometimes there's a social being trying to find an expression - and social AT provides one with a set of 'rules' which they can follow (and sometimes force on others, and be offended when others break them).

But everyone is a unique individual.

 

[JournalInTime]

I quite like the reference to the 'geeks'. Sometimes there's a social being trying to find an expression - and social AT provides one with a set of 'rules' which they can follow (and sometimes force on others, and be offended when others break them).

But everyone is a unique individual.

All I can say is that I'm a former scientist who now works on tabletop games. I'm . . . pretty nerdy.

 

[itwillhappen]

Wow. This is quite interesting. I though men would prefer a mystery. The less personal the better. I actually more enjoy dancing with people I hardly know. We all differ. But I am in general a very private and reserved person. Noted. Perhaps I need to put a bit more effort in social aspect of my dance.

There may be a misunderstanding here, I dance a lot and I like to dance with people I don't know. I mean a brief eye contact, not tell the life story.

 

[itwillhappen]

Setting all that aside, there's an implicit "What men prefer" bias here that hints that all men are super-confident about approaching random women to dance. Some are like that. Most are ordinary guys who fear rejection. Tango is a notably geeky dance compared to most styles, owing to its technical nature and mathematical music, so it attracts geeky guys. Geeky guys aren't famous for their extroversion.

That's definitely one aspect. And in terms of equality, there is no reason at all to take the risk. I also find it a bit risky to even appear to be forcing a woman to dance cheek-to-cheek and breast-to-breast. And it leads to some strange tandas, too.

 

[JournalInTime]

You get the whole range of students at each school. They'll dance whatever style they end up choosing in the same general way when it comes to who gets shown off the most.

Watching couples on the floor at the milonga last night, I realized that what I was talking about comes down not to regional style, role emphasis, collaboration, or anything so calculated, but the following:

​

Most dancers never attain the level of skill where any of this stuff is a choice!​

​

They meander between styles not consciously but as needed to make movements work. They showboat in their areas of competence. They encourage their partner to showboat in areas where they're less competent, to distract onlookers from them.

Example: I watched a couple that at first looked like they knew what they were doing – a tall, athletic leader with a slim, graceful follower, both dressed up for the milonga. I thought, "Okay, these two could be fun to watch." Then . . . "Check out my enrosque!", the leader's body said, as the follower struggled to stay in front of the whirling dervish. "Check out my boleos!", the follower's body said, as the leader did the tango equivalent of coughing into his sleeve because he wasn't leading boleos. They couldn't dance all their vocabulary in one style, and it was a visible case of "I can only dance it this way," not "I want to dance it this way" or "I like to dance it this way" – a jarring shift like going from 1st to 2nd without using the clutch.

This illustrates what I was getting at. That's completely normal around here. I can't imagine my example couple actively deciding, "We're going to dance in regional style X all the time, which will emphasize one or the other of us." It isn't a question of desire or choice but one of capability.

 

[opendoor]

..meander between styles not consciously but..

In other words, you complain that only few dancers in your scene have reached a truly advanced level of maturity. Yes, the couples you've described see themselves as well advanced and far beyond the last advanced class.
Yes, and I agree with you, this group sees itself as the lords of the milonga, the leading caste. I once was a part of it too, and maybe you were too. But its still a state of innocence.
Basically it is a transitional stage in which the dancers have to break away from their first main teacher and finally determine their own development.
But I don't share your pessimistic view. The leading caste is only the premier league of the local dance school. Beyond the dance school, a completely different scene opens up. The milonga isn't really a milonga, it's the social of the dance school. Mature dancers dance elsewhere. The women and men I started dancing with are rarely seen at our milongas anymore. They drive through Europe to encuentros and marathons. One marathon replaces 20 frustrating "socalled" milongas. Good dancers don't have to dance every week anymore.

 

[TTanguero]

They drive through Europe to encuentros and marathons. One marathon replaces 20 frustrating "socalled" milongas. Good dancers don't have to dance every week anymore.

Not just advanced dancers. Coincidentally, I wrote this yesterday:

Feeling that festivals are my tango future

I know, I’ve only been to four events across two festivals so far, so it may be rather early to draw any firm conclusions. But certainly my limited experience to date suggests that festivals …

benlovejoy.blog

 

[JournalInTime]

In other words, you complain that only few dancers in your scene have reached a truly advanced level of maturity.

To be clear: I'm not complaining! I'm saying that couples aren't choosing styles . . . and that's fine. I'm not sure that choosing one or more specific styles is required to (1) enjoy tango, or (2) be a social dancer. I'd go so far as to say that expressing a style is only important to dancers who compete or perform.

Yes, and I agree with you, this group sees itself as the lords of the milonga, the leading caste. I once was a part of it too, and maybe you were too. But its still a state of innocence.

I was never a lord of anything. Well, not true . . . my tango bar was my tango bar, and I was the emperor behind it. Don't touch my bottles!

But I don't share your pessimistic view.

Again, I'm not complaining. This isn't pessimism. It's an observation that style isn't necessary for ordinary dancers.

Mature dancers dance elsewhere. The women and men I started dancing with are rarely seen at our milongas anymore. They drive through Europe to encuentros and marathons. One marathon replaces 20 frustrating "socalled" milongas.

I can't speak to this point. First, I'm insufficiently well-off to travel for tango. Second, I'm insufficiently well-connected to be invited to encuentros, marathons, and other invitation-only events. All of which said, I'd be happy to argue that it is about "well-off" and "well-connected," not "mature" or "skilled."

Good dancers don't have to dance every week anymore.

I can speak to this point: Tango is a use-it-or-lose-it skill like any other movement discipline. You can no more call yourself good but not dance regularly than compete in a full-contact martial-arts tournament without regular training and expect any result other than injuries. I'm not saying you have to dance at the milonga weekly, but I do think that if you don't dance at all, not even at a práctica or in lessons, you won't stay "good" for very many weeks.

 

[Bailango]

Watching couples on the floor at the milonga last night, I realized that what I was talking about comes down not to regional style, role emphasis, collaboration, or anything so calculated, but the following:

​

Most dancers never attain the level of skill where any of this stuff is a choice!​

​

They meander between styles not consciously but as needed to make movements work. They showboat in their areas of competence. They encourage their partner to showboat in areas where they're less competent, to distract onlookers from them.

Example: I watched a couple that at first looked like they knew what they were doing – a tall, athletic leader with a slim, graceful follower, both dressed up for the milonga. I thought, "Okay, these two could be fun to watch." Then . . . "Check out my enrosque!", the leader's body said, as the follower struggled to stay in front of the whirling dervish. "Check out my boleos!", the follower's body said, as the leader did the tango equivalent of coughing into his sleeve because he wasn't leading boleos. They couldn't dance all their vocabulary in one style, and it was a visible case of "I can only dance it this way," not "I want to dance it this way" or "I like to dance it this way" – a jarring shift like going from 1st to 2nd without using the clutch.

This illustrates what I was getting at. That's completely normal around here. I can't imagine my example couple actively deciding, "We're going to dance in regional style X all the time, which will emphasize one or the other of us." It isn't a question of desire or choice but one of capability.

Well said. And I have a converse question. If they do have capability, do they associate or know it is of a certain regional style. I don't think it is important for me to know which regional style a certain part of my movement might belong too. The definition of regional style might be too fluid to keep track of. Role emphasis, active dancing, collaboration, etc - yes. Most of the social dancers you see on any dance floor aren't aware of it. They literally follow what they have been taught at workshops or their instructors without knowing how or skills to deviate for creating/expressing something different.

I was invited to partner someone at a workshop by visiting instructor yesterday. Since I like the instructor and the follower inviting is someone I dance with regularly I accepted it. The follower is a long time dancer, takes frequent privates and workshops. Yet not close to be able to dance actively, lacks some foundational elements and understanding of movement mechanics. I have tried to communicate these with her. She knows where she struggles but is not able to realize why it happens. Therefore I have to compensate at times and this can lead to bad habits creeping into my own dancing. I realized it vividly at the workshop. Generally I am hyperaware about leading from the back, that is with back engaged. During a particular part of the movement, at the end of molinate and enrosque. I was pointing to her that she was leaning away while still front weighted instead of being weighted on the back foot and not to lean away. When the instructor came around and was giving her pointers, she asked me to lead her. At the end she pointed out to me that at the end of sequence I wasn't leading from my back. I was mildly irritated at myself, because that is something I am aware.

Good instructors know how to give a feedback according to level of the dancer. Not all feedback is the same. Unless dancer has a certain minimum skillset, a good instructor won't give them feedback on next level corrections to be made. To illustrate if a dancer is doing 5 things wrong, an instructor will first focus on correcting their basic 2 or 3 things first. If another dance is doing 3 out 5 things correctly, then an instructor may focus on correcting either 4th or 4th and 5th things together. I consider those to be good instructors. I seen instructors, who will either try to correct all things at once or correct higher level thing without bothering that lower base level requisites are a problem.

 

[JournalInTime]

The definition of regional style might be too fluid to keep track of. Role emphasis, active dancing, collaboration, etc - yes. Most of the social dancers you see on any dance floor aren't aware of it. They literally follow what they have been taught at workshops or their instructors without knowing how or skills to deviate for creating/expressing something different.

Around here, someone occasionally gets it in their head to offer courses with deliciously vague names like "Salon-Style Tango" (what salon? Where?) or "Milonguero-Style Tango" (which milonguero?). That's about as close as most dancers ever come to linking workshops, styles, and what they actually dance. In practice, the closest I see to a consistent style most of the time – and some will be amused – is show tango. A fair few couples work hard to emulate fantasy moves seen in stage shows and YouTube videos, and succeed in some measure at making that their style.

At the end she pointed out to me that at the end of sequence I wasn't leading from my back. I was mildly irritated at myself, because that is something I am aware.

Argh, yes. My coaching amounts to paying to fix A, B, and C, during which time I get so focused on those that I let D and E go, have to come back to fix those and B slips out again, so I fix B and add F only to have D go weird. It very much feels like three steps forward and two steps back. So, one step at a time.

Some people just go down the list checking off A, B, C, D, E, F, . . . They take lessons once and honestly believe that they've mastered all that stuff and needn't come back to it. They think they're taking three steps forward all the time. Some listen to me talk about my coaching and shake their head at my slow pace, just 1/3 their own.

I seen instructors, who will either try to correct all things at once

One reason why I just love my coach is that she doesn't do this. She lets me work on some things even if others slip, and we go back and fix the things that slipped later on. She knows better than to correct it all at all times, because if she did that, I'd make zero progress. In fact, she sometimes says things like, "Look, this is a new concept. For now your collection can be dirty. Your arm can be a little floppy. We can fix that after you get this."

or correct higher level thing without bothering that lower base level requisites are a problem.

That's what the checklist people like. Once they've seen the base level stuff, they've ticked the boxes and don't want to talk about it any more. My most recent experience was in a workshop where I partnered a friend as a favor. It was about follower sacadas, but it ended up mainly being Pablo Inza getting frustrated at followers' front steps and leaders' pivots. Maybe that's just him, but he and Sofia seemed pretty cool otherwise.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Most dancers never attain the level of skill where any of this stuff is a choice!

I often wonder whether followers who cannot dance with the traditional close abrazo have simply never learned how to do it or don't like being close to their partners? It's clear that some have never learned or have been taught only how to dance in a very rigid open frame, a bit like ballroom. I'm not so sure about the others. I generally try to select potential partners from among those who look comfortable dancing traditional AT.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Second, I'm insufficiently well-connected to be invited to encuentros, marathons, and other invitation-only events. All of which said, I'd be happy to argue that it is about "well-off" and "well-connected," not "mature" or "skilled."

Yeah, cost is an issue. But you don't need a special invite to attend a marathon or festival abroad; you just have to sign up and have the wherewithal to pay for it. One guy I know travels to Europe almost monthly for such events. Goes for a few days, then returns.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

My most recent experience was in a workshop where I partnered a friend as a favor. It was about follower sacadas, but it ended up mainly being Pablo Inza getting frustrated at followers' front steps and leaders' pivots. Maybe that's just him, but he and Sofia seemed pretty cool otherwise.

He looks like he has very good technique. Not a huge fan but he looks like he knows what he's doing. I imagine it must sometimes be tough trying to instruct a group of people on these techniques and movements when their fundamentals are not solid. If I taught, I think I'd only teach the basics forever.

 

[JournalInTime]

I often wonder whether followers who cannot dance with the traditional close abrazo have simply never learned how to do it or don't like being close to their partners? It's clear that some have never learned or have been taught only how to dance in a very rigid open frame, a bit like ballroom. I'm not so sure about the others. I generally try to select potential partners from among those who look comfortable dancing traditional AT.

As you know from my words here, I'm not super-traditional or anything . . . but yes, I dance close.

I definitely run into the "rigid ballroom frame" thing from time to time. I can deal with the rigidity but not with the back lean, which seems to come with it. That destroys all connection and immediately makes the dance not-tango.

More often I run into "never learned to dance close." That seems to be an issue with schools believing – rightly or wrongly – that open is easier than close, and should be taught first, and with students leaving before they get to the actual abrazo. There are schools that start everyone out in the abrazo, and their students don't take longer to learn or quit more often, so my belief is that open is less a necessary step along the path and more a teaching method du jour that caught on, a lot like the eight-count basic.

When I gave super-beginner lessons, I just taught it close to begin with and it was never an issue.