Question to Leaders about Followers

I think its a big difference: a milonguero style teacher can only teach "connection in a close embrace". While a Villa Urquiza style or neotango teacher can teach any embrace, including apilado! Thats what I meant with "downgrading".
If I think this through to the end, then I should take classes at a ballroom dancing school. The teachers there are didactically and methodically trained and can teach a good dozen other dances in addition to argentine tango, such as swing, foxtrot and slow waltz.
But nobody I know does that. ;)
 
If I think this through to the end, then I should take classes at a ballroom dancing school. The teachers there are didactically and methodically trained and can teach a good dozen other dances in addition to argentine tango, such as swing, foxtrot and slow waltz.
But nobody I know does that. ;)
Well...
we did.

The original 'social' AT teacher was so poor (like, maybe 10 years doing basics before you should go to a milonga, and certainly no 'improvers'), that the only other option to move on was a ballroom dance school. Fortunately we were lucky with our choice. The guy had recently setup after moving back from the US, where he'd been pretty well 'qualified'. He understood the problems, didn't teach us 'ballroom', but certainly gave just enough prep in social AT to consider going to a milonga. Some recollection of addressing holds. We've done a lot more since then with better AT teachers.

I wouldn't recommend this as a course to follow, but needs must. I've come across others who have taken this route. I'd just say that some of the teachers teach what their customer base prefers, but can address other aspects. It's more the 'amateur' AT enthusiast teachers who are restricted, or have a constrained view of 'tradition' and the one true way. And, of course, some others have an agenda.

Our local neo dance teacher seems to have moved to, at least salon if not milonguero; a jive/blues enthusiast teacher has moved to more traditional AT.
 
Some of those things you have to develop on your own I believe. A teacher can help you with certain things, show you how to approach the abrazo, the fundamentals of walking, pivoting, and turning. But much of the rest comes from practice and physical education (teaching your body how to move in a tango-like way).
There is one category of dancers who genuinely enjoy classes, or it is quality couple time. I do not belong to it. As a beginner, after almost a year, I looked at an advanced class after two years, and then rejected such classes as obviously ineffective.

And if you don't get enough exercise in everyday life, some moderate sport is certainly helpful. I also like to balance on one leg while brushing my teeth or waiting for a commuter train.

What I did yesterday:
* Meditate for half an hour (if you can't sit in a balanced and upright position for a while, you can't stand also.)
* Listened attentively to tango music for two hours (songs that I would like to DJ with soon)
* Danced joyful for a few hours at a milonga
* Met people who are proud that they learned something new in their last class. ;)
 
Hi TA_RA, I think it does not depend on the musicality of the follower. The lead is the dominant musical instrument playing in their ears. I even know followers who can dance with unmusical leaders because they get involved. It is all about responsiveness. If followers cannot shut their ears and subordinate their own musicality, they should better lead instead.
The word for your type of leader in Spanish is fascista.
 
I was sick and missed this thread . . .
Hi guys, out of curiosity, do you have any classification for the followers?
I classify followers very informally:
  • Followers who are close friends vs. more distant friends vs. acquaintances vs. faces I sort of recognize vs. unknowns/newcomers. I invite them in that order.
  • Followers who prefer to dance like me (ultra-close embrace, shared responsibility for movements, mark the melody preferentially to the beat) vs. followers who prefer to dance some other way. I do my very best only to invite the first group.
  • Followers who are clearly less advanced than me (invited occasionally, to encourage the community to grow), about at my level (my preference), and clearly far more advanced than me (I have to be having a very good day even to consider it . . .).
And that's about it.
Some followers had more neat footwork. A few did some fancy decorations but overall I couldn't say that someone really stood out for me. Yet I keep on hearing from different Leaders that all followers are very different. Is it true?
It'll depend on the leader. I just about never look at feet. I did that when I started out, but after three or four years of private lessons – sometimes several times a week – it was drilled into me that all the real action happens in and between the dancer's cores. The legs mostly come along for the ride, and the feet are attached to the legs.

However, to expand on "prefer to dance like me" above: I look for active following. It's apparent to me who is using the leader as a barre or pole, and I'll just avoid those followers – they hurt me – in favor of those who create 100% of their own energy in all movements. It's also apparent to me who's aware of the music and interpreting the lead the way they feel the music, and who's just doing whatever the leader wants. I'll avoid the latter.

I guess the ideal follower to me has a powerful motor and a highly developed ear, and takes my leads under advisement, energizes them with that motor, and expresses them in accord with the music.
Let's put age and prettiness aside.
I always do anyway. Most of my partners are older than me, and I'm 55. Not all are pretty, and I don't care one way or the other because if I'm dancing properly, I'll never see more of them than the occasional ear flying past. I should be looking at other couples to navigate, turning my head to see my destination ahead of my movements, and so on . . . not ogling my partner.
Do you feel that majority of followers well balanced and feel their axis?
Axis is tricky. Teachers shout at followers to "preserve their axis" and "hold their axis." What they mean is to maintain balance and tonus. However, it sometimes gets misinterpreted as "never share weight with the leader," which is a loss. I dance somewhat off-axis at all times, with much weight-sharing, because I like the speed and dynamics of "controlled instability." But the emphasis there is on "controlled," not on "instability."
Do you feel that ladies are relaxed or nervous?
That depends on the individual. I prefer relaxed, obviously, but I can deal with nervous. Often I make a deliberate mistake, claim responsibility at once, and laugh it off. That puts us on an equal footing.
Do you feel a lot of initiatives from ladies or luck of it?
Most followers lack it. They take "follower" too literally and just wait for the lead all the time. That's quite boring. An active follower provokes specific leads without taking the lead, ignores leads that they find uncomfortable or dangerous, and knows they have a choice in how to interpret each lead they accept (e.g., any step can be tripled without changing the system).
Do you find that majority of the followers have good musicality?
Really, this is the same as the previous question: No, because it's beaten out of them by teachers who tell them to wait for the lead all the time. Somehow, musicality is 100% the leader's job. Whereas I prefer it to be 50/50, and actively seek followers who are capable of that. Which said, plenty of leaders dislike it, so if you take this path, know what you're getting into.
Why do you think some ladies are more pleasant to dance with than others?
See above. All of it works together. I suppose my perfect partner would be a friend at about my level who dances ultra-close, shares weight with me without collapsing onto me, regards leads as ideas to interpret rather than as orders, generates all her own movements, and never loses awareness of the music.
Also one question about technical skills... Ladies, when you dance, are you trying to engage your back a little bit to make your movement a bit more dynamic or you believe it is destructive for the leaders and you keep your upper body as quete as possible?
As a leader, I greatly favor followers with engaged backs. There's nothing worse than a follower who just mushes into me and isn't rounded out (not tensed, just engaged) in back. That's a sure sign of a follower who won't create their own movements.
 
takes my leads under advisement, energizes them with that motor, and expresses them in accord with the music.
Just as a sideways thought...

If you take away the follower, most leader 'dancing' isn't interesting. It's pretty much Dad Dancing with more finesse. Consider, say, leading ochos. Yes, there can be something more 'interesting' (maybe ochos together?), and some more interesting pivot-like moves requiring more skill. The follower can probably do some interesting dance involving tango steps on their own (thinking of a few YT videos, some involving leaders alone as well) - but, fundamentally, Argentine Tango is a partner dance.

All of it works together.
 
If you take away the follower, most leader 'dancing' isn't interesting.

It doesn't have to be, leaders have access to a similar repertoire of musical decorations, boleos, lapices and so on

The really iconic moves of AT are the interactions such as ganchos and volcadas though, that require a partner.
 
..If you take away the follower, most leader 'dancing' isn't interesting..
Seems you are an undercover nuevo and neotango agent, my friend. Neo is a girl's style. As a tango student, I spent most of my time with Villa-Urquiza stylists and this is clearly a men's style. The leaders make the boleos, lapizes, rulos and enrosques. The lead is quite strict, the follower hasn't much opportunity for embellishments. I reported here from my first workshop with an escenario teacher around 2010 (Raúl Bravo, cofounder of the Todaro-Bravo style). At the time he condemned the still young Villa-Urquiza style as chauvinist: real equality between the sexes only existed in stage tango, he claimed back then.
 
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I don't think "Who gets to show off more, leaders or followers?" has anything to do with artistic or regional styles. It has to do with the egos of the individual dancers! Pick a style arbitrarily and search YouTube. You'll find videos where the performance clearly shows off the leader, others where it highlights the follower, and still others where the partnership is what's on show.

Which said, this discussion seems to be about social dance. I'd say the core answer is still the same: It has to do with the egos of the individual dancers. Even among the gang of students taught the same style by the same teachers during the same years here in town, there are showoff leaders, showoff followers, showoff couples, and understated-but-harmonious couples.

My own bias is toward the understated-but-harmonious couples. I find leaders who ham up the dance to be awful, and I don't like followers who want to be princesses any better. If they're both equally showoffs, at least it's entertaining. But if they're harmonious and take turns without showing off, it's actually pleasant to watch.
 
The classification begins as soon as I enter the room. One group of women sees me, the other does not, and that since years. Well, if the latter ever want to dance with me, they'd have to do a damn good mirada. Personally, I prefer women with whom I can have a good conversation, even if we hardly ever dance together. But such a skill is quite rare.
Wow. This is quite interesting. I though men would prefer a mystery. The less personal the better. I actually more enjoy dancing with people I hardly know. We all differ. But I am in general a very private and reserved person. Noted. Perhaps I need to put a bit more effort in social aspect of my dance.
 
..taught the same style.. there are showoff leaders, showoff followers, showoff couples, and understated-but-harmonious couples..
Of course, but my point was, that that the style is the overriding factor, not the character of the dancer himself. But of course both factors are related, because when you decide on a certain style, your character preferences naturally play a role.
 
Of course, but my point was, that that the style is the overriding factor, not the character of the dancer himself. But of course both factors are related, because when you decide on a certain style, your character preferences naturally play a role.
In my city, style doesn't carry the meaning it might carry in Argentina – especially not historical Argentina. At the level of schools and teachers, it's a business decision: "Lots of people are teaching X right now, so let's teach Y so we face less competition," with a dash of "The big showoff on the popular dance show dances in style Q, so that's the one to teach to make money." That isn't speculation! I worked at one school and I'm on the board of another right now . . . that's the decision process.

You get the whole range of students at each school. They'll dance whatever style they end up choosing in the same general way when it comes to who gets shown off the most. Plenty of students learn more than one style and dance all of them leader-forward, follower-forward, or balanced. It really does seem to be a function of personality, not style.

Closer to Argentine culture, maybe there's some deeper connection – I just don't see it where I live. What I see are men who dance everything from the closest to the most open embrace, from the most traditional to the most radical new movements, in a way that shows off their masculinity; women who dance everything from the closest to the most open embrace, from the most traditional to the most radical new movements, in a way that shows off their femininity; and dancers who discard it all to create art regardless of their choice of embrace or vocabulary.

That could just be an oddity of where I live.
 

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