Question to Leaders about Followers

Yeah, cost is an issue. But you don't need a special invite to attend a marathon or festival abroad; you just have to sign up and have the wherewithal to pay for it. One guy I know travels to Europe almost monthly for such events. Goes for a few days, then returns.
Festivals, sure. At least the marathons here – the ones I could get to easily and inexpensively – are invitation-only. I think there are ties, though. My tango friends who have lots of money and travel to festivals as often as weekly are invited to the local things. It seems to be a case of "To have the connections, you must travel."
 
I have read your article but still cannot see the clear reason why you would choose a festival over local Milongas? Can you elaborate a little bit more on this, please? Thank you.
The short answer is that, in London milongas, there are enough wannabe performers to disrupt the entire ronda. Those close to them have to take evasive action, then other have to evade the evaders ... This makes it impossible to really get lost in the connection and the music as the ronda moves unpredictably and sharply.

But there's also a difference in setup and atmosphere. Most London milongas don't have tables, just seating around the edges, so social chat is challenging. There's also a pretty rigid hierarchy – not so much of a problem for leaders, but many skilled-intermediate follower friends say that they struggle to get dances because some leaders only want to be seen dancing with the most advanced (or youngest and prettiest) followers. That corrodes the atmosphere as a whole.

The festivals I've been to, in contrast, are joyful and friendly places, where everyone dances with everyone, and people are all about the music and connection, not how they look to their (perceived) admirers.

More here:

 
..in London milongas, there are enough wannabe performers to disrupt the entire ronda..
Even worse, mediocrity dominates the picture in Hamburg milongas. The ronda is the measure of all things. I mourn the times when you could still express yourself on the dance floor.
 
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The short answer is that, in London milongas, there are enough wannabe performers to disrupt the entire ronda. Those close to them have to take evasive action, then other have to evade the evaders ...
I understand wanting to avoid that!

Here, it's less "wannabe performers" and more leaders who dawdle while vast space opens up in front of them, step back against the line of dance even when they could advance, and dance all turns as sweeping movements that involve them either walking around the outside of the follower or projecting the follower into a huge orbit. Of late, another trend seems to be freezing in place for an entire musical paragraph; it's far more than a pause. It's all big, halting, and prone to retrograde motion. Unfortunately, that's how the dominant schools in town taught them, and as they're the dominant clique, they're at all the invitation-only events here . . .

We do have a crowd who respect strict spacing – advance if there's more than a few steps of space in front, never retreat even if there's space in back, pause for at most count of four, dance all turns small and with an advancing component when possible – but they tend to be older, less flashy, and therefore not among the "beautiful people" who dominate invitation-only events. To my eyes, they're better dancers.
But there's also a difference in setup and atmosphere. Most London milongas don't have tables, just seating around the edges, so social chat is challenging.
We have some of that here, too. However, many organizers are aware of it and have taken remedial steps.

Last night I danced at a place with tables three deep, with lots of space between them. Some were high, bar-style ones with stools; others were longer and lower, as at a restaurant. Some were adjacent to the floor, others were behind a separating rail that demarcated the bar area. There were also comfy sofas with one, two, and three spots.

A monthly ball we had for quite some time was set in a military officers' lounge. It had massive tables and chairs in heavy, dark wood. It was a space where majors and generals would dine at big tables and then retire to sit around the hearth (blazing in winter, even at the milonga!), doubtless to smoke cigars and drink whiskey. Tables and chairs rearranged, a flawless hardwood floor was exposed, making dancing and sitting equally pleasant.

Another monthly ball was set in a former bank converted into a luxurious space for events such as film launches and charity galas for the monied. When its tables and chairs were rearranged, it was also ideal for dancing.

Interestingly, the venue most popular for invitation-only events here is none of those and has no tables!
The festivals I've been to, in contrast, are joyful and friendly places, where everyone dances with everyone, and people are all about the music and connection, not how they look to their (perceived) admirers.
Interesting. While I'm not a huge festival-goer, I don't avoid the ones within my reach. I've found that most have a hard core of locals who remain as cliquish as always, and little nuclei of visitors clustered together by place of origin and/or language spoken. I'd love to go to a festival where everybody shows up, forgets their allegiances, and has fun. That would be a dream come true!
 
Marathons and encuentros usually have a homogeneous clientele. Festivals are more diverse.
The question being "Do you want homogeneous or a good variety?" I'm more inspired by variety. You can have variety and still have good manners, though – dancers of all styles can value floorcraft, be polite in their invitations, and respect little things like personal hygiene and not dancing drunk. My ideal event is one where everybody is respectful, clean, and orderly in their dancing, yet no two couples are dancing in the same way.
 
That seems to be an issue with schools believing – rightly or wrongly – that open is easier than close, and should be taught first, and with students leaving before they get to the actual abrazo. There are schools that start everyone out in the abrazo, and their students don't take longer to learn or quit more often, so my belief is that open is less a necessary step along the path and more a teaching method du jour that caught on, a lot like the eight-count basic.
Could be. I know that one of the most popular teachers here starts students out by showing them how the abrazo works (how to embrace, how to stand, head angle, arm position) and takes it from there. After that students can dance open for learning certain movements, then back to the abrazo. But it seems to be difficult for many people. And some never seem to take a fancy to it, even those who've been dancing a while.
 
Festivals, sure. At least the marathons here – the ones I could get to easily and inexpensively – are invitation-only. I think there are ties, though. My tango friends who have lots of money and travel to festivals as often as weekly are invited to the local things. It seems to be a case of "To have the connections, you must travel."
I think the invitation thing is mostly for encuentros. And those are mostly in Europe AFAIK.
 
The festivals I've been to, in contrast, are joyful and friendly places, where everyone dances with everyone, and people are all about the music and connection, not how they look to their (perceived) admirers.
Well, that, at least, is encouraging. Friend who went to London recently, and who is well-known here as both a teacher and a host, said he was at a local milonga there and stood around all evening without getting a dance. That's rough. It can happen but it's not a fun way to spend the evening.
 
Well, that, at least, is encouraging. Friend who went to London recently, and who is well-known here as both a teacher and a host, said he was at a local milonga there and stood around all evening without getting a dance. That's rough. It can happen but it's not a fun way to spend the evening.
I think the key words there are 'London' and 'local'. It's like suggesting 'New York' and 'local'. I'm sure people commute to their favourite milonga from anywhere there's good transport.

But 'London' isn't the UK, and not even 'England', any more than 'New York' is the US. Other places can be more (or even less!) friendly. And being 'known' may count for nothing, or be a deterrent.

And, as discussed elsewhere, you need to observe and apply whatever rules are in operation in that locale. You also said 'he', so cabeceo failed, or was 'he' waiting for a dance request?
 
The festivals I've been to, in contrast, are joyful and friendly places, where everyone dances with everyone, and people are all about the music and connection, not how they look to their (perceived) admirers.

When this has happend to me the event has been quite homogenous in hierargy and skill aspects. So you could ask and accept an invitation from anyone and you knew for sure that the tanda would be delightful.
 
There are schools that start everyone out in the abrazo, and their students don't take longer to learn or quit more often, so my belief is that open is less a necessary step along the path and more a teaching method du jour that caught on, a lot like the eight-count basic.

When I gave super-beginner lessons, I just taught it close to begin with and it was never an issue.
There are some pretty strong data points in the other direction.
  • In my little area, an instructor announced close embrace after a few weeks in a beginner class. Four people left right then! The instructor told me he is never doing that again! Another instructor did a close embrace class as a lesson in a beginner's class. A lady did the close embrace (CE), and then announced to my dear wife (DW) she was never coming back because of CE, and was never seen again. This is a weak data point in that you could argue it is a regional thing... until you read the rest of the bullets...
  • I have done years of Tango lessons, and have done several lessons in other states of the United States, and have had a fair number of lessons with visiting teachers. Close embrace is basically nonexistent in beginner's classes, and < 10% even in advanced classes or with visiting instructors. If it helped, or even didn't hurt attendance, I think there would be more close embrace Tango classes. Even visiting Argentine teachers teach open embrace classes.
  • How many other dancers, doing other dances, dance in close embrace? Very few that I have seen, the Blues dancers will do close embrace but I have seen virtually no close embrace dancing outside of that (except for some very rare dances you don't hear about or see).
  • I estimate that around 0.001 to 0.01% of those within an hour's drive of Tango do Tango dancing. Close embrace is not exactly reeling them in.
  • Can you name another activity where people platonically do close embrace on a minutes time scale? Let's see, Blues dancing, cuddle parties, couples on dates (whoops, not platonic!).
Given how rare close embrace is (in the USA at least), it is impressive that most milonga dancing I have seen is close embrace.

I really don't think it is a fad, or an issue of easier. I think most USA people have to warm up to the idea of close embrace, particularly the men, and throwing them into it is bad for business.

Just to throw out an opposing data point, I ask if I suspect a newbie if they want to do open or close embrace. I am surprised how many opt for close embrace, and very few say open only. These ladies have been doing Tango for a while (weeks or months of lessons), and have observed others doing CE. Part of it might be (per my DW from talking with other ladies) that the Tango Distance is regarded as 100% wholesome and safe (maybe the ladies are more comfortable with me? Maybe my Tango Distopia factors in?). Indeed, I danced CE with a beginner when I was in another state, and I later heard her excitedly telling her friend "He danced close embrace with me," like she had won the lottery!
 
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