What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[itwillhappen]

that describes the attitude I see in a few of the cities around me. It really sucks if you’re coming in from smaller, more beginner scenes and try to go to the bigger milongas. Hard to become BJ Penn when there are only 6 people in your biweekly practicas.

It's a question of personal style and also self-reflection. Perhaps your intended dance partners are right in their assessment that they prefer dancing with others, that you're not a good fit for them at the moment or even permanently? And why do you not come with a group, or at least as a couple to such an environment?

Of course, you may have to attend a milonga several times to be seen and accepted. But a distant milonga is usually relatively time-consuming and expensive, and I've always wondered whether the effort is really worth it.
If I didn't feel comfortable at milongas (or events), I avoided them for a few months or years, danced elsewhere, and built contacts elsewhere. And then I might try it again.

 

[pianistamediano]

Tango doesn’t have “this space is for people with atleast two years experience” rule. No such nonsense.

It really sucks if you’re coming in from smaller, more beginner scenes and try to go to the bigger milongas. Hard to become BJ Penn when there are only 6 people in your biweekly practicas.

Playing the devil's advocate here, but while no milonga would have that rule, the dancers at a milonga can, have, and will make it a rule they adhere to ~95% of the time in all but name.

Standard procedure I see is: dance with the best dancers possible, (socially) connected dancers (for the social climbers), dance with friends, and then dance with the PYTs (male or female).

I came from a small scene myself into London. Cliquish and unfriendly and cold as it was and still is, I worked hard on my dance, made friends, worked hard on my dance, familiarised myself with the social landscape and the dancers who frequented each milonga, and worked hard on my dance.

Saying it thrice because as a leader, it's always an uphill climb, and I find it stupid when followers complain that leaders have all the power/have it easy, when I didn't and still don't. They only have eyes for the professionals/leaders on top of the social tango ladder.

@tangoing has the right idea; the social engineering route often pays the best dividends if you're average or below relative to the median dancer in a scene.

 

[Brummbaer]

Standard procedure I see is: dance with the best dancers possible, (socially) connected dancers (for the social climbers), dance with friends, and then dance with the PYTs (male or female).

Yes, it's down to your reasons for going to a milonga. Given that we've moved out of that historic 'hunting' area for a partner for non-dance purposes, then social acceptance (acquaintances) are the best way ahead - for social dance. Dancing with PYTs, when older, just marks someone as a 'creep', unless there are mitigating circumstances.

 

[pianistamediano]

When I lived in the Bay Area I had chatted with a work friend and he said that his female friend loved tango and was eagerly telling him that he should go. I kinda held my tongue because of the different gender expectations and experiences at events. I don’t think the zouk dancer’s experience in NY was really that venue specific. I know a lot of salsa and swing dancers in a smaller town, they try tango in earnest for one or two full class sessions and drop out because even the friendliest milongas are unwelcoming to a social dancer of other styles.

Among all the social dances, tango probably has the steepest learning curve at the beginning for leaders, and social support is a paramount factor in whether they stay or leave. It's hard for followers too, but way, way easier.

I can definitely attest to that, because I went to socials after just a few classes in salsa and swing. Sure, I was flailing aboot and making quite the mess on the floor, but it was nothing, absolutely nothing, like what tango demands.

It's a catch-22 — you're most probably not going to stay in tango unless you've had a dream tanda/that very first of many superlative, amazing dances, but you're not even going to have that experience unless you stay for years.

Most people these days are not willing to persevere for a long period of time without much reward. They stay in tango mostly because of friendships; very few stay because they see something special in tango from the very start. I don't blame them.

Not going to go into the debate of whether tango is harder/needs more skill than other dances; at the highest levels, it all becomes academic and a matter of semantics.

 

[Brummbaer]

Most people these days are not willing to persevere for a long period of time without much reward.

However the learning technique has a bearing. Instead of 'learn to walk for 2 years' before we move on, we have 'I want to dance now'. Personally, but only to some extent, I've found the prolonged technique phase helped, but it needs a compromise - which I guess is where we get into levels of milonga, or what was once the practica. Once, you had to be good enough not to dishonour your teacher; now we expect everyone to be eager to dance with us.

 

[itwillhappen]

I know a lot of salsa and swing dancers in a smaller town, they try tango in earnest for one or two full class sessions and drop out because even the friendliest milongas are unwelcoming to a social dancer of other styles.

This is so called "long-term recruiting." Around 20 years later ... when the children have left home, and usually the spouse too, when your bones ache from salsa or swing dancing, and neither your belly nor your chicken wings look well being shaken around ... then tango classes and milongas develop a completely different appeal.

 

[fiesta0618]

This is so called "long-term recruiting." Around 20 years later, when the children have left home, and usually the spouse too, when your bones ache from salsa or swing dancing, and neither your belly nor your chicken wings look well being shaken around ... then tango classes and milongas develop a completely different appeal.

I don't know, wouldn't long-term recruiting work better if folks had warm memories of that long-ago dabble?

Anecdote: I stay away from Bachata these days, even though I've entered a phase where I am dabbling in more different kinds of social dance, simply because my first experience in the community years ago was not a good one. Intellectually, I fully recognize that this is not rational. But feelings are powerful things. It doesn't feel worthwhile to grapple with that distaste for something that I'm just doing for fun and for which I have many alternative options.

 

[brujo]

Of course, you may have to attend a milonga several times to be seen and accepted. But a distant milonga is usually relatively time-consuming and expensive, and I've always wondered whether the effort is really worth it.
If I didn't feel comfortable at milongas (or events), I avoided them for a few months or years, danced elsewhere, and built contacts elsewhere. And then I might try it again.

I live close enough that I take classes in the big city with a huge tango scene an hour away. And have a fantastic time at most milongas watching people dance and chatting. I love my tango classes. At the same time there is this weird discomfort in my mind at milongas of trying to bring the mentality I have from other dances of dancing with everyone and making sure people feel safe and fulfilled in the dance floor. At some of the milongas, I meet people that drive 2 or 3 hours to come experience the event and maybe get asked to dance 3 or 4 times. But I guess that is just the nature of tango events. Need to start treating milongas as the deep introverted relationship that I build slowly, and continue getting my dance fixes with the other more flirty, outgoing dances.

 

[fiesta0618]

AT would certainly do better with recruitment if there were venues where a total newcomer (3-4 classes) could participate and feel welcome. Practica is not a satisfactory solution, because everybody understands that to be "not the real thing."

The real trick is finding a way to make beginners welcome while still incentivizing them to improve. Bonus points for consistently showing evidence that they are not "intermediate" yet (people are rarely as skilled as they think they are) without making that reminder discouraging.

In the end, I don't think ANY purely-social social dance community achieves that. IMO, it requires some sort of deliberate structuring, and that structure needs some kind of centralization in order to scale. Even if just locally, where there is some prominent person/org/club that folks recognize as "the ones that make things happen." Decentralized efforts at this, like leveled encuentros, just end up looking cliquish and gatekeeper-y, even if that is not at all the intent. At the whole-community level, it becomes a choice between welcoming beginners or incentivizing quality--pick one. Club Latin and Social Ballroom do the former, and AT is firmly focused on the latter.

********

Ironically, competition *does* offer that helpful structure. The leveling systems mean that you can have newcomers and literal world-champion professionals together in one event, feeling welcome and comfortable while also knowing where they stand.

This is actually one of the things that gave me confidence back when I was a talentless beginner: yes, I may be bad at this, but I can be sure that everyone around me is, too, so I won't look out-of-place or embarrassing. And I know I won't be getting in the way and bothering the advanced dancers, because they just got off the floor. And and, I can clearly see how far I have to go, because I know their level and can closely watch what they do. Oh, hey, and that advanced leader I was admiring five minutes ago is cheering for me! Cool!!

Having said all that...from a social community perspective, I think Ballroom does not do this well, for many reasons, and this is why the social and competitive communities there are strangers to one another. But I think that West Coast Swing does a pretty good job striking a balance. I would say that all of us can learn something from how they do things over there.

 

[brujo]

AT would certainly do better with recruitment if there were venues where a total newcomer (3-4 classes) could participate and feel welcome. Practica is not a satisfactory solution, because everybody understands that to be "not the real thing."

The closest thing to this I’ve seen are house parties that are held for smaller more niche dances. A teacher of the big bachata classes also invites people to her house and shows the attendees that are more experienced dancers new other styles like Kizomba and they dance after. A lady building up a blues fusion community started with 4 people in her backyard and now has about a list of 40 people that regularly attend. She invites newer people all the time. Even the smaller tango house parties I’ve been to at smaller communities have the smaller more intimate milonga feel.

 

[opendoor]

AT would certainly do better with recruitment if there were venues where a total newcomer (3-4 classes) could participate and feel welcome. Practica is not a satisfactory solution, because everybody understands that to be "not the real thing."

I've already wrote it here: I attended a regular milonga dance party long before I took my first tango lesson. Experienced dancers taught me the first steps and etiquette (codigos). You can certainly make it in that order. I've seen it a lot, too.

 

[Brummbaer]

AT would certainly do better with recruitment if there were venues where a total newcomer (3-4 classes) could participate and feel welcome. Practica is not a satisfactory solution, because everybody understands that to be "not the real thing."

I guess we won there. The cohort we started with are still dancing AT 10 years later.

We were also invited to a selective group lesson in another location to become good enough and expand our vocabulary much faster.

But prácticas nowadays have several meanings. Once it appears you were kept there until good enough for the 'real thing' i.e. 'met the standard', then it became practice time (guided and unguided), then an informal milonga.

 

[fiesta0618]

I've already wrote it here: I attended a regular milonga dance party long before I took my first tango lesson. Experienced dancers taught me the first steps and etiquette (codigos). You can certainly make it in that order. I've seen it a lot, too.

I hear you.

I would point out, though, that you are a special kind of guy; unusually willing to reach out for what you want, grind away at tough barriers, and ignore snide commentary along the way. I don't think most people have the guts or the will to implement the methods that work so well for you personally. Recruitment strategies need to aim for a lower common denominator than you represent, although retention strategies do not.

Or maybe this is another localized difference?

 

[lucia_l]

Recruitment strategies need to aim for a lower common denominator than you represent, although retention strategies do not.

I think this is true in general. But also they strategies can be different. And there are at least three different things:

1. Recruiting someone into wanting to learn and dancing in the first place.
2. Retaining someone who just started out learning and dancing.
3. Retaining people who have been dancing a long time.

These can all be very, very different. I don't know if that Zouk dancer on the video was accurate in her appraisal or if she picked some uniquely unfriendly event, but the idea that newer dancers can never expect to dance with a good dancer, or newer dancers can't ask may be attractive to those in (3), but they aren't very attractive to those in (1) or (2).

Now, I'm not saying you can't recruit (1) or (2) if better dancers favor dancing with better dancers. They always will. But hearing outrage at the thought that a newbie would even think to dance with someone good? You can't expect that to help you recruit new dancers or retain those who just started out learning. And it doesn't need to be "everyone" saying that-- it only needs enough people saying it for a newbie to just leave. People not already addicted to AT will say, "What's in it for me? Why don't I just learn salsa?" Then they are off to salsa, bachatta and maybe they'll give WCS a whirl.

 

[brujo]

These can all be very, very different. I don't know if that Zouk dancer on the video was accurate in her appraisal or if she picked some uniquely unfriendly event, but the idea that newer dancers can never expect to dance with a good dancer, or newer dancers can't ask may be attractive to those in (3), but they aren't very attractive to those in (1) or (2).

I think you work out subtle ways of doing this as a beginner lead that is less imposing. You just have to make it not the entire tanda. Sometimes when chatting with more experienced dancers they’ll offer to dance the last song or last two songs of a tanda. Or if you show up super early the people there are usually more tolerant of beginners after the class. I’m pretty surprised this wasn’t mentioned by the friend —- but I guess you forget all that after a while.