Why some women are not asked to dance

[ArbeeNYC]

I believe NYC is not the ideal place to take tango lessons.

Why?

 

[ArbeeNYC]

but it was sensibly presented here as an equal-opportunity thing

It is but it is almost always initiated by the men. Women are, by and large, passive about this (I'm not saying they should be only that's what I've experienced). Some are more proactive than others, of course.

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

That's the way I learned as well. OTOH, the man does not "stare" at the woman. It's a glance, sometimes quick, sometimes not so quick. The woman generally does not initiate the mirada. However, it would be nice if more women were a bit more proactive in that respect. Some women are but men are far more active users and initiators.

I don’t stare. I try not to put the woman on the spot. Sometimes it hard to know whether she’s avoiding your gaze or hasn’t noticed your cabeceo. I prefer it when a follower acknowledges your gaze and looks away. Then you know she saw and said no. Some will shake their head slightly. It’s quite subtle. The more experienced followers do this well. I agree that it is rare for the follower to initiate contact, and, sadly, it’s often women you aren’t wild about dancing with. I usually dance with them anyway though. I think it’s harder for a man to say no than for a woman to do so.

In regards to the OP’s question, reasons not to ask:
1) she seems to prefer open embrace (I strongly prefer CE)
2) she is much taller/shorter than I am (my teacher says this should not be an obstacle for me, but I find leading with a height difference more difficult)
3) we danced before and I didn’t enjoy myself (however, sometimes a dance was bad; we both acknowledge it, and agree to try again—here good humor on both sides is critical)
4) she is a regular who dances badly and doesn’t improve (I don’t really have a problem with beginners dancing badly—but there are few things worse than people who show up week after week, don’t seem to know they can’t dance, and never improve). I know from my own experience that people cut you a lot of slack if they know you are working on your dance. What pisses people off is expecting a free ride... not putting in the effort and waiting for other dancers to give you a good time. This applies to both men and women.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I think it’s harder for a man to say no than for a woman to do so.

Not in my experience. If I had a dollar for all the women who said no. . .

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

Not in my experience. If I had a dollar for all the women who said no. . .

So do you say no?

 

[ArbeeNYC]

So do you say no?

I have, yes, of course. Reasons vary though. Could be that I'm not thrilled about dancing with that person, but I could also not like the music. I might even be tired and need to sit for fifteen minutes. It happens.

 

[TTanguero]

It is but it is almost always initiated by the men. Women are, by and large, passive about this (I'm not saying they should be only that's what I've experienced). Some are more proactive than others, of course.

In London, women are pretty active in cabeceoing.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

In London, women are pretty active in cabeceoing.

Well, maybe I'll have to check London tango out, then one of these days.

 

[Rabbit]

Cabeceo is usually presented as some sort of exotic tango thing but it's just eye contact that people understand in regular life situations... the actual thing that takes a while to understand is the milonga social dynamics.

I agree that it is rare for the follower to initiate contact, and, sadly, it’s often women you aren’t wild about dancing with.

Followers can be very proactive in my experience. It really depends on how much they want to dance with you specifically.

 

[Skrappy@tango]

In London, women are pretty active in cabeceoing.

I have never been to London but I have heard cabeceo in UK is poor to non-existent.

 

[Skrappy@tango]

Why?

Tango needs total immersion, much like Chinese language.

 

[TTanguero]

I have never been to London but I have heard cabeceo in UK is poor to non-existent.

Not true at all – it is the norm in London.

 

[Gssh]

Yes, traditionally it is the woman who chooses with the mirada (the look) and the man who accepts with the cabeceo (the nod), but it was sensibly presented here as an equal-opportunity thing: if you want to dance with someone, look at them; if someone looks at you and you want to dance with them, nod, else look away.

I tend to think of this also as a symmetrical process, where both leaders and followers scan the room to see if anybody they are interested in dancing with is interested in dancing with them - if we were to go really fine grained the whole mirada/cabeceo thing is not actually asking somebody to dance - it is always the leader who walks to the followers seat and asks them for a dance - but it is a pre-negotiation that makes sure that the leaders only ask people who want to be asked by them. It is exactly like at any party - you come in, check who is there, who is in deep conversation with somebody else or with their drink, who looks like they would welcome a conversation, and then you walk up to people who look like they are up for company.

So i think it is more like this ( L for leader, F for follower):
1) L and F are looking around, L notices F (and F2, F3, F4), F notices L (and L2, L3, and so on)
2) L and F realize that their gazes have met - mirada has happened.
3) L is tries to make sure that there was really a mirada, so he does a nod/wink/whatever towards the dancefloor (again, like at a party - though in parties smiles are more common, unless you are trying to get somebody to meet at the buffet or so, and then nods/pointing with the chin are the standard, too (which makes sense - in tango we also invite our partner to go somewhere with us)
4) The L walks over to the F and asks for the dance - which should be pretty much guaranteed if everything went well.

I am not a big fan of people describing the mirada-cabeceo as leaders asking followers for a dance. I find that when leaders are trying to use this to ask one specific follower by staring them down, or when followers don't at least somewhat actively look for / "ask" leaders the whole thing gets kinda creaky. It works best when the beginning is symmetrical and everybody is actively involved.

 

[opendoor]

......heard cabeceo in UK is poor..

Not true at all – it is the norm in London.

Today TTangero, 12 years after the traditional turn.

 

[JournalInTime]

Tango needs total immersion, much like Chinese language.

A lofty goal, but not a realistic one for the majority of people who would like to learn tango or Chinese. It comes perilously close to claiming, "Unless you can afford to uproot yourself and spend lots of time, perhaps the rest of your life, in another culture, don't bother to try to learn these things." Only a tiny minority of interested parties have the resources – the cash, the time, the freedom – to devote themselves to learning that way.

Unless we're building bridges or doing brain surgery, close enough is good enough. Imperfect lessons on a casual basis might not create natively fluent dancers or speakers, but they will satisfy most curious parties. More important, they will spread the influence of the dance or the language.